S3 Ep1: From Financial Fallout, To Freedom
Welcome to Season 3 of the RAV Podcast
In this first episode of our new season, Tarryn Cherniayeff shares her extraordinary story of empowerment with Patty Kikos. From relinquishing control and access to her own money, to uncovering her ex’s gambling addiction and ice pipe. None of that was as shocking as the money he’d stolen, or the amount of loans he’d taken out in her name. While the financial fallout is not quite over, Tarryn has found incredible ways to experience freedom, heal, love, thrive , be independent and live life on her terms.
Our co-founder also shares some thoughts from this episode. Kirrily’s key takeaway from this episode is how to have difficult conversations, especially with people trapped within coercive control. It reinforced the need to focus on kindness and gentleness during those conversations.
This approach dovetails with the first point of the RAV strategy and our theme for 2024 - Caring Conversations.
The RAV mission is to build communities where family violence no longer lives. Our blueprint focuses on a strategy built around four key themes.
Caring Communities
Respective Relationship Normalisation
Building Self-Esteem
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Transcript
Intro
RAV. Run Against Violence.
Welcome to season 3 of the RAV podcast. This year's theme is ‘Caring Conversations’.
We acknowledge the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.
Tarryn
I know when you look at it on the outset, people would say to me, “you need to go here,
you need to do this; you need to do that.” I'm working on it and I'm doing it at my pace.
And it's traumatic, so each time I would speak to a new organisation or a new bank,
I would get hit with more debt and more information that I wasn't aware that was done to me, right? So, I'm still going through that at the same time. I went to the police. I tried to file police reports.
I haven't given up. I keep going. I keep talking about it. I keep ticking away at it, but I'm also very conscious of it not taking over my life. Because for me, I was literally left, the day that I left, I was left with, I think roughly $2 to my name.
So, for me, the most important thing was to get back to work, to then get some money so that I could then chill for a second and put the time into doing these things. So, I go step by step and I do it in my own time because it's really important to have these conversations, especially with my ADHD, if I'm not connected at that time and I'm getting hit with, you know, “you've got to do this, this and this”, it's just going to go in one ear and out the other, or I get really overwhelmed and then I shut off.
So, I need to do it when it works best for me and when I'm going to get the best results because otherwise, I just wouldn't do any of it. So, I've made peace with the fact that these things take a really long time, and I still want to get my life back at the same time and enjoy my life as well as taking my power back and clearing my name of those things.
I was told once that I’m going to have to come to terms with the fact this is going to take about 6 or 7 years. It's going to be a really long slog. They said:
“You won't be able to apply for a credit card. You won't be able to go for a home loan, no matter how much money you have in the bank. It won't matter because you have to clear your name from these things”. And I figure in my mind, well, I was working so hard for 12 years for someone else to walk away with nothing. I can deal with 7 years for me. I can take that hit because it's just for me.
No one else. So, yeah, patience and perseverance. perseverance.
Patty
Hello, I'm Patty Kikos and welcome to our conversation. You're about to meet Tarryn Cherniayeff. Her story is about love, trust, hard work and betrayal. She'll tell us about how she left school when she was really young and took up a trade that she still excels in today. By the time she was 21, she'd already travelled some of the world and had lived overseas in London, much like many Aussies do at that age.
And this is part of where her story begins. Upon her return home, girl meets boy, they start to date, move in together pretty quickly, get married, and even start a business in Sydney's exclusive eastern suburbs. It sounds like a dream come true, doesn't it?
So far, it all seems aspirational and even hints at couple goals. But behind the scenes, we have emotional manipulation, gaslighting and financial abuse.
How did someone who worked for up to 12 hours a day in a thriving business not have access to her own bank accounts? In fact, why did he even have her bank card?
When Tarryn started to question her ex, there were 2 life -altering lies that were eventually exposed. One was his secret drug addiction, and this was the instigator for her to leave. But she also unravelled another compulsion that not only turned her world upside down but is also the reason that it's now finally becoming the right way up.
Money makes the world go round, but when you don't have access to it, or when it's all been taken from you, where do you uncover the strength and the courage to not only start over again from nothing, but to also find your light and shine it brightly for others to do so as well?
Tarryn
I guess the fact that I've been asked to do this is huge because I fought so hard to have my voice heard. So that's, yeah, a big thing that you've asked me here to share my story. And I think that means a lot. I met him through my brother actually.
So, I moved over to the UK when I was 18, 19, and I moved back for my 21st birthday. So me and my brother was super-duper close growing up. And we had the same kind of group of friends.
It was kind of me and most of his friends, and I had a couple of girlfriends that would all socialise together. And so, I came back for, actually his birthday is a couple of days after mine. So, my ex was at the birthday, and I was like, I don't recognize that person. Like, who's this new guy? I guess they became friends while I was living overseas.
So, I didn't really know anything about him. He had this arrogance about him as well. I actually introduced myself. He was hanging around me a lot, and my brother's mates were like, “no stay away.”
Patty
Oh that's like a red flag to a 21 year old bull though isn't it?
Tarryn
Yeah well what do you think? A girl is 21 years old you, and tell her not to do something and she thinks she knows everything. After that, we started dating pretty quickly and after our first date things moved really fast
Patty
How did your brother respond to that?
Tarryn
Yeah, he wasn't happy. We didn't speak for about 3 months or something. Yeah, and that broke me. It broke my heart.
Patty
Another telling sign.
Tarryn
I think so. And he says at the time that it was because I was dating his friend and he didn't like that. But, you know, I think, I don't know what, looking back on it Now, my brother did have a few little digs at me throughout the relationship like,
“Hey, that doesn't sound right or be mindful of this because this is what he was like before you guys started dating” and things like that. But it wasn't big enough for me to flag it. I was enamoured by him, and I was totally swept up in this person that he was projecting.
Patty
And what was he projecting? I mean, you talked about confidence and the bravado.
Tarryn
Yeah, super successful, super driven, fun.
Patty
He was successful in what way in his career?
Tarryn
In his career, he would talk a lot about where he was going in life and what he wants to achieve by a certain time. And, you know, he owned a house at the time.
Patty
Was he a couple of years older than you?
Tarryn
Yeah, 2 years older than me. So, he's like mid 20’s and he's already got a place in a really beautiful area by the beach. And I'm thinking, you know, he drives a nice car. Not that money was important to me, but it seemed like this person had his shit together. So after dating in my teens and, you know, dating around when I was overseas,
it was very different to having somebody that had some kind of stability and a goal and drive to push forward through that.
And also, I thought he was surrounded by a lot of people all the time. So, I was like, you know, he must be a good guy, he's got a large group of friends, which in turn turned out that a lot of those people that weren't actually like real friends. It was all just a very surface level. And I thought at the time of moving in together that having him have access to my money was like a grown up thing.
You know, it was very, why wouldn't he take care of the finances? In my mind, I trust him. He's really good at his job. Okay, sure, that's your thing and I'm going to go to work and I'm going to do this. And then we come together at the end of the day. I never foreseen it ending with him taking everything that I had.
Patty
Not only did he have access to your bank account and passwords, but you also didn’t.
Tarryn
There is a fine line between.. it's a very blurry line for me when I look back on it because in my mind, I’m thinking, as I said, we’re these grown ups, we've moved in together, we've got our first place together...
Patty
Did you move into the apartment that he owned?
Tarryn
No. No. So, prior to moving out, I had said to him, “I want to move to Sydney,” because where we grew up, I worked really hard to get out of. So that's why I moved over to the UK, and I did my travel. I came home and I thought this is a little bit too small minded for me and I can't be in a smallish kind of town like this. So I had said that to when we first met, and I said, “you're more than welcome to come with me, I know it's really soon, but I can't stay here. I can't. I feel too suffocated here, ironically.”
Patty
So, moving to Sydney together was an adventure, which also would have bonded you because there's nothing like moving to a new country, but in this case, city together, to get your bearings together and then also stay connected and possibly a little enmeshed together, right?
Tarryn
Exactly, very somewhat codependent I guess at the beginning because we didn't really have a large group of friends there. I was starting a new job and he was starting a new job and so all of the things that were once comfortable were a little bit uncomfortable.
But prior to us moving in, you asked if we moved into his unit. We didn't actually. We ended up moving in with my dad because he had said, “well, financially, it makes more sense for me to rent my place out, and I'll stay with you and your dad while we work out a plan and get enough money to move to Sydney.”
Patty
Makes sense when you hear it, right? But in reality, what happened?
Tarryn
Okay. So, he moved in, and it only ended up lasting 3 months. He didn't really pay a cent rent, as my dad had said, “as long as you guys are saving I’m happy for you to stay here.”
Patty
And you thought you were in fact saving, even though you had no access to your own money?
Tarryn
I did! He actually sold his apartment, so I thought okay great like we've got a bit of an injection of money. He says “let's go on holidays and I was like oh this is actually really nice okay like let's go on holidays.”
We actually get back from holidays and we'd only been living together for 3 months or 4 months and a debt collector comes knocking on the door while I'm at home alone on a Friday night, saying that we're going to repossess his car if I don't pay the money. And that was when we'd been together in total, maybe 6 months. And this is after he sold his apartment. So, in hindsight there was some signs there.
Patty
Tarryn, I want to go into a bit of a segue because in the spirit of our ‘Caring Conversations’ theme for this year's podcast topic, what sort of things can people say when they want to reach out to someone that they feel might be in an emotionally or financially abusive predicament? Because you also don't want to make someone feel ashamed for their plight in that current chapter that they're navigating in their life, right?
Tarryn
Absolutely! And I think it is actually a really difficult thing to navigate because depending on the level of manipulation there, the first thing you're going to be met with as the person going to somebody that you believe maybe being manipulated or worse, is you're going to be met with like a defensive thing.
Because I was groomed to believe that what he says was right all the time and he could say the sky was pink”, and someone would say, “oh it's blue,” and I would say, “it's pink” straight away and I was groomed to believe that he was right.
Patty
In what way did that happen?
Tarryn
He used to say little things to me even down to cooking, was that he was doing me a favour or that he was taking care of me.
Patty
And then you're lucky to have him.
Tarryn
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Patty
That would have plummeted your self -esteem?
Tarryn
Hugely. I, over time, I became a lot more withdrawn whilst being in the relationship. I would later find out that I was being made to believe that I was suffering from depression and cut to being put on any depressants because I was asking essentially too many questions.
Patty
So, if we could finish that little chapter that we spoke about, if someone does want to broach the subject, would you say that the best way is to be gentle?
Tarryn
Just continue, don't give up on them because it will eventually spark something in them. I think that the power of these kinds of podcasts as well, it's relating to everyday people and hearing real stories from people.
And as I said, like at the beginning when I was chatting to you, I never thought that that could really happen, nevertheless to me, you know, because why do you? You never think that you're going to be on the receiving end of something like that. But having these conversations and even I feel like for me, the best approach, and I can only speak on my experience, is if somebody was speaking about someone in the third person, I feel like.
Patty
So, neutralise it instead of putting up to you directly? Because you have mentioned when we've had private chats offline and I said, did anyone ever say anything you have mentioned that someone would say something and your immediate defence was, “well this is how we do things in this relationship.”
Tarryn
Correct! I had a friend say to me once we went out for dinner and drinks and I said, “oh I've just got to ask him to send me money,” and she said, “you work full time” and said, “I do” and she goes, “why don't you have money that's not normal,” and I said, “well it works for us” and immediately felt defensive
Patty
If she’d told you of something in a neutral way, like if it had happened to a third person, and asked for maybe your opinion on it, and then just opened the conversation and left it there. Like planting a seed and watering it occasionally? That is fantastic advice, that is actually brilliant advice.
Because I know that you also say that you suspected you had ADHD and in fact we're only formally diagnosed a few years ago. Do you think that this might have made you a little more vulnerable?
Tarryn
Absolutely, because I struggle and still struggle with holding attention to things and numbers, maths, it is not my strong suit. And I think that that was definitely used against me, knowing that I can't keep up with those conversations. So, you’ve got to understand that the man I’m dealing with is highly intellectual, and everyday intellect as well.
So, he knew how to manoeuvre a conversation around, and essentially gaslight me into thinking that we’d come to a resolution, when I’m asking about the finances and I would walk away and 10 minutes later, I'd be like, what just happened? And he would say, we've already talked about this, you know.
Patty
Even though you hadn't, but you were made to feel as though you'd be in instigating yet another conversation, even though the conversation hadn't actually been clarified. Even though the rupture, for example, hadn't been repaired. It's interesting because you have spoken about how you gave your power away. And of course, one example is that you moved in and he took control of your money. Can we unpack that a little bit? Because you said that you also found yourself paying for things that in hindsight, you probably shouldn't have been paying for.
Tarryn
Correct. So, before we actually even moved in together, he would say I was staying at his place. “You're staying at my place and you're not paying rent.” This is like we've been together 3 months at this point like roughly, and he’d say, “so I need to fill petrol up in my car can you pay for the petrol?”
So, then I was like okay I’m paying petrol on this fancy BMW when I’m driving my dad's car - I didn't even have a car at the time. Umm okay that's fine, I guess that makes sense, as I'm not paying rent, but my dad wasn't charging me rent at home because I’d just moved back home. He wanted me to get back on my feet, you know, get back into working and the swing of things. So, I had dad trying to have me save money and the money I was saving was going straight to this person.
Patty
Who was justifying and convincing you of the reason.
Tarryn
Correct, yeah. So, even on date nights, I was paying for those things because I was staying out 4 nights a week and I wasn't paying rent. So, in my mind, he justified that. And I'd never really had a serious boyfriend. So, I just thought that that was maybe how people did things.
Patty
And so did you think, oh, well, all of his money is going towards his house and his apartment that he's paying off, it makes sense that I cover this because I'm not paying rent. See, all of this makes sense in an isolated observation, doesn't it?
Tarryn
It does when you break it down case by case or situation by situation, you know, well, I guess that makes sense, right? Like, that's fair.
Patty
Yeah, in an isolated way, sure. You've also told me that you were quite enamoured by this successful charismatic man who showed interest in you. Was there ever a time and this is this is a very leading question, so where you might have thought dare, I say, that you might not be “good enough” for him? And I use this in inverted commas I mean what would Tarryn today say to Tarryn back then especially when he took control of your money when you were 21.
Tarryn
It's so funny because I did have moments where I was made to feel like I'm just a hairdresser.
Patty
So, you were already devalued because you were “only a hairdresser?”
Tarryn
I didn't, I didn't even start year 10, so I'd never really done exams. I didn't do HSC. I would look back on that now, and the funniest thing is, I am so successful in what I do. And I love it. And I've really taken a skill as far as I can. And there's even so much more I can do with that.
So, I think being labelled as “just a hairdresser” in that moment, I thought, well, I've moved home. I don't have any money because I've been traveling, right? I've had my travel experiences in my early 20s. So, to me, that was a major win because they're still studying, you know, at uni.
And no disrespect to people that go to Uni but it's just 2 different lifestyles, and I thought I was really ticking things off my list, and then I was I was made aware that that maybe I wasn't, well I was told, that maybe I wasn't smart enough to hold a job, “because you don't understand what I deal with people, big sums of money, you know, selling houses or renting units or whatever,” all that kind of stuff as 2 very different types of careers,
right?
Patty
And one is seen as more elite than the other, but only by certain people, not by everyone.
Tarryn
Correct. But I was made to believe that I was the lesser in the relationship, which, funnily enough, cut to having a business together, several years later, I was actually more successful and more financially, technically, the breadwinner in the home than he was. So, it's really funny the way you, the way you're portrayed.
Patty
Well, it’s fascinating, isn't it? Yeah. We'll get to that in a moment because I want to talk about some pivotal points. You got married. I mean, was it your dream to do this? Did you have a dream wedding? And the thing that I'm most curious about is, did anything change for you after you got married? Because ironically, that's how you and I know each other.
Tarryn
I know! {giggles} I didn't actually. My parents were divorced and I come from a broken family, or however you want to look at that.
Patty
But there's nothing broken about it.
Tarryn
Absolutely not. But growing up in that household, I kind of thought, no, I never really want to get married and that was always a trauma of mine that I needed to work through but no, I never really wanted to get married. I never envisioned a wedding. I met him and a few years into the relationship I guess I was kind of made to feel like I couldn't get by in life without him So that would have been the next step.
So, back then, yeah, I would say I loved him. But I think I was also made to feel like, yeah, I couldn't get by and love. “You know, you wouldn't be able to do this without me,
Taryn”, you know, things like that. And it's like, okay, well, when we start talking about those things, I guess it makes sense to, to marry this person, you know, because I can't. Who would want you, you know? “Who would deal with you, Tarryn, and all your garbage and whatever you bring to the table?” So, I was like, okay, well, he loves me anyway. So, I guess we'll get married. He planned the entire wedding.
Patty
You didn't have any input?
Tarryn
I picked my dress. I picked my wedding dress, and I picked the colour of the bridesmaid’s dresses. I found YOU, you were all me. {both giggle} But other than that, the location, the invitations, the music, everything was all him.
Patty
And in hindsight, is that just something that was important for his level of control that needed to be exercised over you?
Tarryn
Absolutely! Because I remember talking about the bridesmaids dresses specifically, and I said I really liked the idea of having all different dresses, same colour, but all different dresses. He said, “absolutely not!” Straight away. No, that's going to look terrible.
Patty
And again, that’s an isolated incident. That's a very normal disagreement that a couple can have. But when it's one of many in that particular context, it is a red flag. Now that you think back, it's like, wow, there wasn't even an opportunity for discussion. There was just, I'm shut down once again, and I've learned it's easier to roll over and say, “sure”. Did his behaviour towards you change after you got married?
Tarryn
He stopped pretending to be nice to me, I think, and it became easier for him to just be downright nasty to me the way he would speak to me. Our honeymoon went for 3 and a half weeks, so within the 3 and a half weeks from being married, we went on the honeymoon straight away the next day after the wedding. It was almost immediate. The lack of respect for me had diminished like overnight, basically. We opened the business pretty quickly after getting back. So, we got married…
Patty
That's right. Yeah, you went from being a hairdresser that worked for someone else to then being a business owner in a very exclusive eastern suburb in Sydney with a fancy car, and had a loving husband. So, you were probably considered a power couple by many. But what was really going on behind the scenes when you worked 12 or 13 hour days, but still had no access to money?
Tarryn
Yeah, so cut to we get married, honeymoon and business all within the space of a few months. I’m working 12 hour days, opening the shop, closing the shop. Loving it, succeeding, we're doing really well on the outside. Financially, I thought he paid the wages, he paid everything.
All I ever did was place orders and send them to him for him to pay and, you know, I'd tell him the stock and everything like that. So, I was very much the worker bee. I was kind of sent in to do that, and I would talk about coming off the floor to manage and, “no, no, we need you on the floor,” and it was almost like the hierarchy of he was my boss, even though I was the face. I was the one working there it was all everything that I had worked up, until that point to put into that business to be able to open.
I bought the clientele, I bought all of that with me, and I had a really good reputation in that area already prior to opening the salon so it became very clear to me looking back on it now. But even I did have moments where I was like, I would say to him, I shouldn't have to ask you to give me a breakdown of this and what we've made today,
nevertheless, the week, the month and then cut to the year.
I never knew. I'd never seen the accounts. The only money I ever saw was the money that when someone would pay cash. I'd put the money on their card, I'd use the EFTPOS machine, but the terminal would go straight to the bank. He also, on that note, had an accountant, which was his friend, and he'd go and have meetings with, and I was not invited to.
So, I would never know where any of that was up to. All I’d see is, he would come into the salon, collect cash from the till unannounced. He'd walk in at 5 o 'clock. I'd be there till 9, or 10 o 'clock at night, and he’d come in towards the end of the day, obviously on his way home from work, grab the cash and leave. I would then later find him at the pub on the poker machines, putting all of that money straight into the pokies.
I assumed that we had money for him to do that. I thought this was a way he had a really stressful job so he would tell me all the time, “you don't understand the stress I'm under.” I just assumed that that was a way for him to blow off steam and that it was what he needed to do, as long as we weren't in a financial position to be worried about it. Like I know some people gamble, some people drink, some people use drugs. Ironically he was doing all 3 with my money.
Actually, there’s a few things I can mention through COVID that were quite big things. He would start off at the pokies down at the pub, having a few beers with mates and whatever, it seemed really innocent, right?
So, I didn't think anything of it. I'm working, whatnot. Cut to COVID, he is betting on his phone on baseball and horses and random sports. This man doesn't even know a thing about sports. So, it was kind of like, “how are you doing this?” He would then convince me that he was really good at betting and gambling.
Patty
And that he was actually making money for you.
Tarryn
Correct. So, within the same week of me noticing that, he had applied for loans in my name. He ended up getting $40 000 and losing it on the stock market all in the same 24 hours.
Patty
Wow. At this point, Tarryn, did anyone else know about this? I mean, did you think or realise that you were being abused or controlled?
Tarryn
Not at all, Patty. I thought, I didn't tell anyone. My dad actually said to me one day, because him and my dad were really close. So, I was at work and my dad would come down to visit. They'd go to the pub and they would, he would sit there and watch him put thousands of dollars through the poker machines, because dad lived really quite far away, so I didn't get to see him a lot.
So, I think potentially in his mind it was like a one off every now and then when my dad would come, what harm could come of it? Towards the end, we were still together, and my dad said to me, “hey, I want to let you know that the lady at the pub has pulled me aside to tell me that she has watched him put thousands through daily.”
So, all that money that we were both earning, a double income household, was going straight onto the poker machines. And I said to Dad, “oh, no, it's not that bad.” And he was like, “well, I'm not going to get involved, but I am telling you what I've personally seen and what I've now been told by a stranger.”
Patty
Famous last words that we hear all the time, “I'm not going to get involved.” And there's no judgment because if you don't have capacity and you're not able to take on something big like this, then don't. But if you do have capacity, I just feel like a lot of people don't feel that they're qualified to reach out to someone, or they might be conditioned to believe that they shouldn't interfere in someone else's private life.
Tarryn
I agree.
Patty
What are some things we can say to those people that are reluctant to speak to their friends or their relatives? How can we have those caring conversations?
Tarryn
I think touching on what we spoke about before, relating it to somebody else is for me huge. If someone, it's easy for me to sit here and say, if somebody said this to me, would I believe them probably not? I probably wouldn't because I didn't think this was possible.
Patty
I think the most important thing is approaching these conversations head on is usually not the way to go. Unless someone says, “hey, do you think I'm being financially abused because ABCD happened, then it might be different.”
Tarryn
Correct.
Patty
But if you're going in to see if they need assistance, approaching head on is not the right thing to do. Is that what you’re saying?
Tarryn
Absolutely. Because they get defensive and let's be honest, it's really hard to talk about money as it is. You lend your friend money, and it's so hard to ask them for it back, right, let alone your partner. Introduce some a third party into that to be like, “what do you think?”
Patty
So, making it relatable but not directed to you?
Tarryn
Correct and I think and not giving up on that conversation just bit by bit slowly. “I actually listened to this podcast the other day about a girl that this happened to, r and it’s so crazy. I didn't think that that was possible or, you know, you should listen to that, give it a listen.”
Or I read this article the other day about this guy that got.. and relate it to a third party. It's less threatening and you want to understand that, as I said, it's hard to talk about money and it's also hard to involve other people in your problems regardless, like in a relationship, right? You don't.
Yeah, it's hard you know so, I think just not giving up on that, and just bit by bit, and softly, and gently, and just not giving up because it gets in subconsciously, and it will start to trigger something like, “hang on a minute actually yeah that isn't right.”
Then you can go to your partner and have that conversation with them, otherwise the default is going to make you defend them.
Patty
But if there's going to be a spark it means that you'll also be looking at your partner's behaviours through different eyes.
Tarryn
Correct. Yeah.
Patty
What happened to the business, Tarryn? {both laugh} I mean, I know, but tell our listeners.
Tarryn
I loved that business so much, but it was such a blur to me because within that period is where everything really started to get very blurry for me and for us, financially. We sold it.
Patty
Was it a joint decision to sell it?
Tarryn
I was made to believe that it was a joint decision to sell it. I was made to believe that I was too sick to carry on working that.
Patty
That's right, because you were becoming increasingly more sick because of the stress. You were getting migraines.
Tarryn
I was. Yeah.
Patty
Tell us about your neurologist.
Tarryn
Yeah, so I was seeing a neurologist for, actually, it was the year that we got married, I started getting migraines and we couldn't figure out where it was coming from. Long story short, I was on and off a lot of medication to try and tackle that. One of the biggest things that was advised to me was to minimise your stress and things like that, but yet I'm running this business that I'm working 12 hours a day. So, at the time, I'm thinking that it's the business.
Patty
Did you have any inkling that when you were at home, you were in flight/flight mode because you were constantly needing to defend yourself to someone?
Tarryn
No, I had no idea.
Patty
In hindsight, can you see that now?
Tarryn
Absolutely, absolutely, because do you know what the craziest thing is, Patty? The day that I left him, my migraines minimised. My neurologist said to me, I'd gone in for my routine 10 -week appointment, and I told him what had happened and where I was at,
and he looked at me and he asked, “and your migraines are okay?” I went, “yeah”, and he goes, “Tarryn, this man was making you sick.” So ever since then, I was able to minimise the medication I was on.
And towards the end, I was cancelling clients at the salon all the time because I couldn't manage my pain. The day that I left him, after all the stress that I was put through and all this information that was being thrown at me and later finding out how much debt I was in.
Patty
Actually, we'll get to that because when you sold the business, tell our listeners about the profit that you got. Oh, wait, you didn't.
Tarryn
Yeah, so let's loop back on that. So, I worked, opened that salon, had it for 5 years, worked sometimes 7 days a week, 12 hour days, making really good money,
never seeing a cent of that day to day. Once we sold the salon for quite a decent profit, I was then told that that money was going into a savings account that couldn't be touched unless we both went into the bank.
I said to him, “that's great, can I just have a look at the account so I can see how much is there?” “Oh, this type of account you can't see online.” I said, “okay,
that's cool. Let's go to the bank together then.” And then for weeks, for weeks and weeks. And then everything unfolded.
Patty
That sounds to me like this is when you started to get your power back.
Tarryn
I think so. Bit by bit, I did. But at the end of the day, I walked away with nothing from that business and ended up in a million dollar debt from all the bank banks, bank accounts credit cards, personal loans. So not only did I walk away with nothing, but I also walked away with a heavy debt.
Patty
And so, what was the turning point that made you leave?
Tarryn
Once we told the salon and it got into my mind that I couldn't see the money. There was this gut feeling that I can't explain it, this gut feeling, I sat on the end of the bed and I was just crying and I was saying to him, “I feel like you're lying to me about something and you can tell me, whatever it is we can get through it, just be honest with me and tell me”, he looked at me and said, “I have no idea what you're talking about.” He went to work the next day, and that feeling was still there.
I went into his home office, and I don't know what made me do that as I’d never done this before, and we've been together for 12 years I'd never gone through his phone. The other thing that made me go in that room was that a few weeks prior he changed his password on his phone and wouldn't tell me what it was so there's all these little things, and again I'm not telling anyone that this is happening I've gone into the home office, and I found 10 to 15 empty bags of what looks like white powder. And I'm thinking, “where are these from?”
So, I keep looking. And the craziest thing is that there was foil in his cupboard. And obviously, as a hairdresser, I have my home kits. So, the sun was hitting the foil, and I've looked up and I've gone, “what is this? why is that in here? That's really weird.” I kept looking and I ended up finding in his suit jacket that he would wear to work; a hole cut through the pocket and found an ice pipe.
Patty
Wow. Did you at any point know that he was an ice user, much less addict?
Tarryn
You know what? I got told, he told me when we first got together, that he was addicted to ice when he was 16 years old, but he was able to kick the habit. It was part of his allure for me actually, that he had completely changed his life from that, and I said to him, “I’m a very non-judgemental person, but if you ever do that ever again while we're together I'll leave you.”
So, a few months prior actually I'd found one in the home office, and he had told me he was hiding it for a friend, and I believed him. I said, “get rid of it I don't want it in the house I don't care, we've got 2 dogs here with this laying around get rid of it,” so then I found another one and I essentially left.
Patty
And what did you uncover that was possibly worse than the pipe that you found?
Tarryn
Yeah, the million dollar debt.
Patty
And you found an alarming amount of bills and court hearings and receipts of all your jewellery that had been pawned and you later discovered that he'd taken out loans.
Tarryn
I don't have a MyGov account, I can't get WiFi. There's a lot of things that I still can't do. That day that I left, I ran into the office, and I grabbed all this paperwork, and I couldn't bring myself to look at it initially, because I was still in a shock from leaving him.
Patty
Who actually helped you leave?
Tarryn
So, the day that I found the ice pipe, I called my best friend, and I called my dad crying. They could barely understand what I was saying. And they both had said the same thing. They said, “you need to get out of there. And I said, “I can’t, I have no money.” And they said, “what do you mean you have no money? You sold the salon. You've worked your entire adult life.” “He has access to it.” “What do you mean? Where's your bank card?” “He has my bank card.” “Why does he have your bank card?” “I don't know. I need to get out of here.”
He had all my details, like the Apple, whatnot for my email. So, he would actually apply for loans overnight, fast loans in my name, and I'd be asleep. By the time the confirmation had come through, he'd deleted it in the morning, so I was none the wiser. So, when I left, my best friend, I called her, she had said, “you need to get out of there.” And I speak to my dad. Now, my dad hasn't spoken to my mom in years.
Within 24 hours, my family tree had been activated. It's the only time I ever get emotional about sharing my story, because when people say, I hate the term ‘broken family’, because you kind of get looked down upon your whole life, and with him, he always used to hold my family dynamic against me like he was superior to me.
Now my family within 24 hours I had had a bank card on my way to me, with enough money to get me to and from, to start working again, and I had a roof
over my head with my cousin, like I can't actually put it into words how that felt. Because, you get told for so long that you're going to end up like this, or that, because of your upbringing and things. And then when everybody gets together to just like hold you up when you can't hold yourself up, it’s mind blowing, isn't it?
Patty
I still have goosebumps. I'm still shivering. Did you speak to any professional bank managers who have experienced with financial abuse that helped?
Tarryn
So, we went into like a private room. I was getting a lot of like emails, and phone calls. And I'm like, “I don't even know what these are. They're chasing up this money, you know. I don't even know what you're talking about. I only have my savings account. I never had control of a credit card. I'd never applied for a credit card, nevertheless, personal loans”.
So, she set me down. She told me the amounts. I just burst into tears. She was really good to start with. She said, “look, we take financial abuse very seriously.” She showed me that the accounts were linked to his phone. So, they were all in my name, but the contact numbers, every time I try and change my password, he'd get a notification about it because it was on his phone.
So, we had then started a process to lodge better security and where to even go from there because there was, as I said, the sums were really large. I think, for example, the credit card was $80 000 and one of the loans was over $100 000. So, we're talking large sums of money.
They're trying to gain the money back from me. I'm trying to figure out how this is even happening and coming to terms with the fact. She had then moved branches and then it became a little bit difficult to try and pursue that but I'm still ticking away at that.
Patty
I know you've shared that you never knew how tenacious you could be because the person you spoke to at the bank actually moved position and then the branch closed down. So even though you made progress, your progress has never been linear. Because escalating this matter with the right personnel at the bank is still on your very long to-do list.
I know when you look at it on the outset, people would say to me, “you need to go here,
you need to do this; you need to do that.” I'm working on it and I'm doing it at my pace.
And it's traumatic, so each time I would speak to a new organisation or a new bank,
I would get hit with more debt and more information that I wasn't aware that was done to me, right? So, I'm still going through that at the same time. I went to the police. I tried to file police reports.
I haven't given up. I keep going. I keep talking about it. I keep ticking away at it, but I'm also very conscious of it not taking over my life. Because for me, I was literally left, the day that I left, I was left with, I think roughly $2 to my name.
So, for me, the most important thing was to get back to work, to then get some money so that I could then chill for a second and put the time into doing these things. So, I go step by step and I do it in my own time because it's really important to have these conversations, especially with my ADHD, if I'm not connected at that time and I'm getting hit with, you know, “you've got to do this, this and this”, it's just going to go in one ear and out the other, or I get really overwhelmed and then I shut off.
So, I need to do it when it works best for me and when I'm going to get the best results because otherwise, I just wouldn't do any of it. So, I've made peace with the fact that these things take a really long time, and I still want to get my life back at the same time and enjoy my life as well as taking my power back and clearing my name of those things.
I was told once that I’m going to have to come to terms with the fact this is going to take about 6 or 7 years. It's going to be a really long slog. They said:
“You won't be able to apply for a credit card. You won't be able to go for a home loan, no matter how much money you have in the bank. It won't matter because you have to clear your name from these things”. And I figure in my mind, well, I was working so hard for 12 years for someone else to walk away with nothing. I can deal with 7 years for me. I can take that hit because it's just for me.
No one else. So, yeah, patience and perseverance. perseverance.
Patty
But also, the fact that you will never be able to recover your superannuation that you had since you were 15 or 16, or any of the profits because they also got taken from you.
That's something we haven't mentioned, have we, that he also logged into your super and took it. And if you do the maths, just don't convert it. How do you do that? How do you deal with it?
Tarryn
I go up and down. Some days, I think it's just materialistic things. And then other times I get really angry that the blood, sweat and tears that went into to making that super and things like that. But a lot of therapy is really important. It took me a while. I fought it for a while. I thought I'd be fine.
Patty
When you say therapy, do you mean counselling?
Tarryn
Yeah, I see a psychologist. I found one that works really well for me. And I'm now to the point where I see him when I feel like I need to see him. But for a good while I was going every week. It’s a lot of money, but it’s imperative to have people like that and a good counsellor or a good psychologist to talk to dissect things, so that it's your thoughts because I think when you do talk to too many people, there's too many ideas going around and it's good. It's just you and your thoughts with that person.\
So, therapy was definitely a huge thing for me. Yeah, I would say, and leaning on my friends and family too.
Patty
You've also said that there were people that found out about what had happened.
you and honour you exactly as you are. On a scale of 1 to 10, how healed do you feel and what do you need more of in order to recover and continue to thrive? Because you're already thriving. I mean, you're still dealing with a lot, but you're dealing with a lot while you're still thriving. And I love that about your story. On a scale of 1 to 10, how healed do you feel and what do you need more of in order to recover.
Tarryn
I don't know that anyone can be fully healed from something like that because it is a constant reminder. I think at the moment anyway, and I can only speak on where I'm at now, but every day I'm reminded of something. But I get closer and closer to being at peace with it because at the end of the day, I have more control over my finances. I have more access. I have access to more money than I ever did, even though I don't have the amount. I don't have anyone telling me what I can and can't, do with it. I don't have to ask anyone for money. And for me, that is huge to be able to go down to the shops and buy what I want.
And I just remind myself how lucky I am that I have that I was able to get here. So, in terms of being fully healed, I don't think it'll be a blip in the scheme of things10 years down the track. But right now, it still comes and goes, it comes and goes. But it's a little bit fresh and raw, isn't it? It is. And I think, I would feel better about things if I had seen some form of justice for somebody like that and to know that they can't do that to another person.
Which is why it's so important for me to talk about it. Because, you know, if they can stop that from happening to one person, that makes this whole thing worthwhile,
You know, that's that, yeah. So, yeah, does that help?
Patty
I think so, because I think it's important for people to know why it would be hard for someone to gaslight you now. Because the beautiful thing that you've learned is, in some people's narrative, you're always going to be wrong, bad, incompetent or unworthy.
And it's important to know that when we walk away, we don't let that drain our energy because we're not plugged into somebody else's opinion of us, which I think is important. And your happy ending is actually your happy continuum because it's not the end, isn't it? I know you've shared that you've struggled with basic things like using a computer, but I also know that you own that. You're no longer ashamed of yourself about it.
Tarryn
No. No, I take that in my stride. I think being a 35 -year -old woman and learning how to use a computer and learning that..
Can I tell you a story? When I first got my first place, I didn't realize that I needed to hook up the electricity. So, I've walked into this tiny little apartment and the electricity's on.
So, I'm like, I just thought it came with electricity because I've lived in many places, but, he just controlled everything. Who or what supplier we went with the account and everything.
So then about 2 weeks after living in that apartment, I've come home and it's pitch black and I've called my dad crying saying, “I don't know what, I don't know what's happened. He's done something, blah, blah, blah”. Anyway, he says, “you've got to call your electricity provider”. And I say, “I don't know who that is”.
So, I've sat there and I'm ringing all these places and they have nothing listed because I haven't connected it.
And bless one company, they said, “oh, we've got your address here, but you needed to switch it over”. And I was like, “oh, okay”. Well, I did that. That's one thing done. And you know what? The first thing I did when I moved down from that place into this place?
New electricity. And I'm proud of those things that I know how to do that and who to call and how to set it up.
And, you know, as I said, I never, ever had to do that before. So, I love that I get to do that, you know, with the mundane things that people are like, oh, we're going to worry about, I get excited about because I know how to do them.
Patty
Yes! And it should be celebrated because we learn at different junctions in our lives.
Some of us earlier on, like for example, you had a trade and were making money when you were 16 while the rest of us were at school.
Tarryn
Yes.
Patty
So, you know, I think it's about respecting the different chapter that people are at in different life stages in their life and none of it is right or wrong or good or bad.
It just is what it is. It's also beautiful to know that the most empowering thing about your healing is that you're doing it on your terms, in your way and in your timing. Any last words of advice on how we can have caring conversations with people so that they know we are a safe person that would never judge them?
Tarryn
Yeah, I think it's just that to let them know it's okay. Like it is okay and I believe you whatever you're going to say I believe you, because the amount of times I got told that I was crazy or that no one's going to believe you, who's going to believe you know this big shot or this hairdresser it's um telling just telling people your friend,
whoever it may be, if you want to talk to me about something, no matter what it is, I believe you, I'm going to listen. I hear you and we're going to get through it together.
Patty
My final question for you today is, are you a solo walker or do you like walking with company?
Tarryn
I like being surrounded by animals. So, walking with a dog. I don't want to walk with people, no. No noise either.
Patty
No podcast, no music?
Tarryn
A bit of music, but definitely not another person.
Patty
Tarryn Cherniayeff, you have been a delight. Thank you, thank you,
Tarryn
Thank you so much, Patty. Thank you for having me.
Patty
I'll have you any day on this show. Thank you for sharing your beautiful wisdom. And that is it for today, folks. I'm now going to pass the baton to our fabulous co -founder Kirrily Dear, who will share some amazing information about what RAV are up to behind the scenes.
And if you found this episode to be helpful, please do share it with someone that you think could benefit from hearing it. Liking, subscribing, but especially leaving us a 5 -star review ensures that we give the algorithm a helping hand to get to the listeners that needs to hear from us the most. Bye from us for today.
Kirrily
Thank you, Tarryn and Patty, for such a fantastic conversation.
I have learnt a lot from listening to both of you today. My main takeaways are around how to have difficult conversations with people who are trapped within coercive control,
as Tarryn was.
It reinforced the need for kindness and gentleness in those discussions. I know as bystanders, as people who may be witnessing a friend or family suffering,
we want to fix that really quickly. And so, we can tend to be a little bit headstrong with it or confrontational with the information that we have. But as Tarryn highlighted,
that when a person is trapped within their mind and within that relationship, that information is likely to be rejected. I really love Tarryn’s tip of using those third -party stories.
Stories that take the intensity away from the communication, but also provide evidence that those behaviours are not made up or random that they are actually a pattern of behaviour that other people have experienced.
I also value that Tarryn reinforced the need for persistence and kindness, planting little seeds and from that the person will finally, hopefully find that opportunity to wake up to what's going on, and find a way out of that scenario.
Hi, I'm Kirrily Deere. I am one of the co -founders of RAV and we're actually doing the work to build those communities. The RAV blueprint is our plan for how we will build those communities, and it consists of 4 core strategies.
Firstly, we're building caring communities. Part of that is this year's Run Against Violence theme, which is ‘Caring Conversations’ and helping people understand how do you interact and talk with people who are experiencing violence so you can support them to healthier outcomes.
The second part of that strategy is respectful relationship normalisation. Now we saw this with Tarryn's story as well, in that when she was very young, she didn't understand what a respectful relationship looked like.
It's one of the reasons that Run Against Violence has invested $400 000 over the last 4 years into ensuring every Australian teenager has access to respect for relationship education. But education in our schools isn't enough. We need to replicate those behaviours out in the community so that everyone comes to understand what it is to be in a healthy relationship.
The third part of our strategy is then building self -esteem and we saw the impact of this in Tarryn's story as well. Her ex -husband eroded her self-esteem through slowly wearing down her self-belief and her understanding of what she was truly capable of doing. As a community, if we invest in building self -esteem, then we become more resilient and more capable of identifying unhealthy behaviours before they take hold.
And finally, reliable services. We need to ensure that when people reach out for help, they are able to get the support that they need. We saw this unfold in Tarryn's story as well. Even when she chose to leave the relationship, she has had an incredibly difficult journey navigating the complexity of the problem that was created by somebody else.
Not only has she been saddled with an enormous debt, but she’s also had to deal with multiple agencies. Thanks again to Tarryn and Patty for such an incredible discussion and being part of this journey is all of us, all of us, take steps toward building communities where family violence can no longer live.
Patty
If you or somebody close to you is experiencing violence, please tell someone. If you'd like to speak to a professional support person confidentially, please call 1800 -RESPECT. That's 1800 737 732. And if there's an immediate threat to your safety, please call triple zero.