S3 Ep3: Brenda Lin - Healing trauma & Creating Safety for Other Survivors

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Welcome to Season 3 of the RAV Podcast

15 years have passed since the tragic event when Brenda Lin’s parents, brothers and aunt were murdered. She is now a criminologist who is completing her PhD, and is one of the co-founders of the Survivor Hub, an organisation that supports, informs & empowers people impacted by sexual assault. Brenda shares her extraordinary story of resilience with Patty Kikos, and how she is still healing after the grief and trauma she has experienced.

After listening to this, Kirrily had 3 key insights to share

That we can have a caring conversation without actually using words. Most communication between humans is non-verbal. So to be able to care for someone and to help that person feel like they are cared for, sometimes it's just about doing stuff together.
That children especially, don't always have the words to describe what they are feeling, and that becomes an enormous barrier to communication. So, it's on the rest of us to help break down that barrier.
and finally, I think a really simple but important tip is to let the person lead their conversation about their life.

‘Listen, Learn and then Care’. They're the 3 words that are on the sleeve of this year's t shirt, and that's why we put them there. They're a brilliant prompt for all of us to be able to participate in ‘Caring Conversations’.

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Transcript

Intro

RAV. Run Against Violence.

Welcome to season 3 of the RAV podcast. This year's theme is ‘Caring Conversations’.

We acknowledge the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

Brenda

It's interesting because I felt something I've been reflecting on lately as well. My whole life is a trauma response so far. Like, everything I do is a trauma response. So I go really hard at things. So, no, whether I think when I before the Survivor Hub, I was just doing sort of research work, and so I went really hard at that and devoted all my time to that.

And now with the Survivor Hub, you know, I give all my time to the Survivor Hub and split the research work as well. So, it's, it's interesting because when I do give myself my 110% of something, it's really good. No, it feels meaningful, feels productive. It feels like, it's also a distraction, But I also know it's valuable because I get to help other people and feel like I'm making a bit of a difference, and that's really helpful for my healing.

But I do notice that I do get burnt out quite easily. So then there are times where I will wake up and then, go, “today is not happening. I'm gonna try”, but nothing happens. And I sort of, I'm just like a potato on a couch for a little bit too long.

So, it's I think as well over time I'm willing to go, “actually, no, that's okay”. I give myself space to be whatever I need to be in that time. But then at the end of the day or whatever the next period of time is, I'm gonna pick myself up and start again. And look, for me, getting outside is often really helpful.

So, I have a husky. She's absolutely beautiful. We go for lots of walks together. And sometimes when I've had a really bad day, I'll eat junk food, sit on the couch, cry, or all those all the above and just feel really sorry for myself. But then I go “actually, I’m done. And I now have to move on. I have to keep on going.” So, I go outside and reset.

Patty

Hello. I'm Patty Kikos, and welcome to our latest chat with Brenda Lin. For some of us, myself included, her name seemed familiar, but I couldn't quite place it at first. I met Brenda when she was one of the speakers for an event that I had attended and was so taken by her story that I asked to interview her for our podcast.

And when I did my research into her background, I was taken aback at who I had just encountered. Not only is she one of the co-founders of the Survivor Hub, an organization that I have referred many of my own clients to over the years, but she and her family hold a file in my memory bank that I've never been able to erase.

When Brenda was just 15, she was away in New Caledonia on a school trip. And with limited access to smartphones and social media back then, she ended up clicking on a Facebook link to discover that her mother, father, aunt and brothers Henry and Terry had been killed. After being sent to live with another aunt and her husband, in a cruel twist of fate, not only was her uncle then found guilty of having committed those murders, but in another act of betrayal, had started to sexually assault Brenda.

At the time of this recording, Brenda is 30. So, she has officially spent half her life learning to live, survive, and then try to thrive without her family of origin, but then start over again when she had to leave her aunt's home. In this interview, we chat about how we can connect to people that have a completely different cultural background or identity to us in a way that is respectful but also caring. In fact, how do we reach out to individuals like Brenda who have endured such trauma that is unimaginable? Our recording had to be rescheduled, and she gave up her lunch hour to speak with me.

And while the internet behaved mostly well, there were a few times we would test it, but I'm sure that won't take away from her remarkable story. You've described yourself, Brenda, as being A,B,C. Can you share more about what that means to you for our listeners?

Brenda

Yeah, of course. So, ABC, that stands for ‘Australian born Chinese’.

And what that means is that I was born here, but my parents are from China. So, they grew up in China, migrated over to Australia, I think in their late twenties, decided to set up life here and yeah, had me and my brothers.

Patty

Did you speak English when you were little, or did you speak Cantonese or Mandarin?

Brenda

Yes. So, when I was younger, my grandparents also came over to Australia to help look after us.

So, my parents, they went to work during the day, and my grandparents looked after me. My grandparents are from China as well, couldn't speak a word of English, still can't. And so, this meant between, I think, 0 and 5, I didn't speak any English at all. And I remember going to school and arriving at school and being absolutely petrified because I couldn't understand anything that they were not supposed to say.

Patty

I can relate to that. It's very common among immigrant families. Isn't it? By the time we were 7, we'd be filling out application forms on behalf of our parents.

Brenda

Yeah. And correcting their English or the grandma or will I proofread all the letters they write as well

Patty

That's exactly right. So, was it Mandarin or Cantonese that you spoke?

Brenda

Mandarin.

Patty

And I know that you've said that doing well at school was important to you as it was something that was also very pertinent to your family. I mean, what was school like for you in primary? You mentioned you didn't speak a word of English initially.

Brenda

Yeah. So, they often talked about how well they did in classes and how they came 1st or 2nd or 3rd in their tests, and they were very proud of it. And at home, that's what's always communicated to us about the importance of education because if you got educated, that meant you got more opportunities in life.

And my parents grew up in China during a period of great change. You've got the cultural revolution; you've got the great famine. So, lots of people didn't have anything. And the only way to sort of get above and just to survive was to do well academically. And so, they sort of brought that sort of mindset back to Australia and they really encouraged me and my brothers to do well at school.

And, you know, they taught a lot about the sacrifices they made to get us, to get them to Australia or to get themselves to Australia so they could give us the best possible chances of succeeding, give us the best possible life. So now, obviously, were as kids, were very grateful for that, but also on that note, it was a bit of pressure to also, I guess, honour that, opportunity that we've been given as well.

Patty

Brenda, you've described your parents as not being overly affectionate or even tactile, possibly due to their own cultural upbringing. Did you feel safe and loved at home?

Brenda

Oh, no, absolutely. Of course. My parents, I think this is maybe, somewhat common in Asian families as well, where they aren't, overly sort of tactile with like the hugging, the kissing. I could probably count on my hands, like the number of times that I saw them sort of physically show affection to each other.

So that wasn't going on at home, but in spite of that, and I still knew they loved us very much and they always taught us that. So, I was very grateful for that, but I think they showed love in a very different way. And the way they sort of showed love was really, through sacrifice and, and through making sure that we had the best sort of opportunities and giving us what we needed so we could succeed.

Patty

What was your transition into high school like, especially as your mom had become unwell, you mentioned that she had developed schizophrenia.

Brenda

Most definitely. It was very scary. And I, so I think around year 7 is when I started sort of noticed that, well, my mom was starting to say things like, “look, no, there's, there's some people saying things to me or wanting you to do certain things.”

Patty

So, she was experiencing paranoia. She was experiencing delusions.

Brenda

And at the time I believed her as well, and I didn't realize that was, a mental health issue. And it wasn't until I think in, maybe in year 9 at school where we sort of did mental health in class and PDHPE classes where that sort of then I learned about schizophrenia and I though, oh my goodness.

Everything I'm learning about schizophrenia, all those symptoms, they line up to what all things that my mom is experiencing as well. So, and, obviously, through that period as well, I know we still struggled as a family to sort of get her diagnosed, especially given that mental health isn't something that is very sort of well sort of understood or talked about within the Chinese community.

Patty

Especially back then. Right?

Brenda

Yeah. “Mental health isn't real. If you're feeling depressed, just get over it.” So, I think there was quite some time when my dad didn't believe what was going on with my mom and just wanted her to get over it. Obviously, that wasn't happening.

Then obviously getting her to get sort of medicated and get treatment as well. That was also hard because with someone with schizophrenia, they believe all the things they're hearing, and seeing or whatever is very real to them. So that so there were lots of very frustrating moments at home.

Patty

And this started from when you were in year 7.

Brenda

Mhmm. And it's got progressively worse throughout her life as well. So, I think it was sort of a little bit in year 7. I heard about it. It was sort of manageable.

She could still do, the things that she did in day life, but as the years went by I meant that in particular, the newsagent where my mom and dad worked, she couldn't really work there or do anything at the front counter because, she was thinking that there are certain people were coming in, wanting her to do things that they don't want them to do. So, she was also responding to that and wasn't quite appropriate for what she was doing.

Patty

Brenda, you were a keynote speaker at an event that I attended. It's actually where we met. And you spoke about having experienced homicide in your family, but you didn't go into the details. It was only later when I approached you and I asked you to be on the podcast.

Obviously, I started to research you that I realized I, along with many in my generation and possibly older, have a parasocial relationship with you. And so, what I mean by that is that we feel a connection to you, and we feel like we know you or of you, but you don't necessarily know who we are.

So, often as a society have parasocial connections with celebrities or actors or and you're certainly in that realm as well. Because after reading and remembering what had occurred, obviously, I felt a connection to you. And to be really honest with you, I also felt emotional and overjoyed to see that you appear to be thriving in your life because this was an event that was beyond a local community or beyond a state. It literally rocked the nation, much like what would have happened with Lindy Chamberlain in the 70’s. You shared basic details of what had happened without going into laborious details. Is that because you're also conscious of not imposing shock and trauma onto someone that you just meet?

Brenda

Yes. Most definitely. And look, this is something I've had to really deal with and learn throughout the years as well. So, I lost my family in 2009, so that's 15 years ago. I'm now 30, so I've lived, half of my life with half of them without. I've had a long time to process and to think about it and make sense of what's happened.

And I had also had a long time sort of just to where I have had to disclose that to someone who is in front of me or in a particular context, and I've seen lots of different reactions as well. And through that, you know, I've had, and I'm still working on this, so I don't have the final answer yet.

I've, you know, gotten a little bit better at sort of gauging when it is appropriate to say something or when is it not appropriate to say something or even if it is, how much and to what extent I say something because I very much recognize that, you know, it's for someone who's hearing it for the first time, they are hearing it for the first time. And they're trying to make sense of it in their head.

Whereas I've had a long time to sort of deal and manage with it and sort of work out in my head, so it is, I recognize it's really, really tough for people to hear and, and part of, I guess, being caring and loving as well is making sure that, you know, if it does need to be shared, that I'm sharing in a way that is sort of caring for the other person and sort of is kind as well.

Patty

Yeah. That's right. Because many people won't have the benefit of having seen this happen on the news like I did.

For example, I remember where I was when princess Diana died. I remember where I was when I found out that your family had been murdered. That's how big a deal it was. There will be many people unlike myself that will have heard it for the very, very first time that won't necessarily have the reference that I did as well.

Brenda

And, you know, given the work I do as well, I know that sometimes it's quite hard to know where that is, because I I'm a criminologist, I'm a researcher. I also, run the Survivor Hub as well. So, both those sort of roles that I hold have some sort of tie in with the justice system.

Especially in my criminology role. I have taught, classes where, when we talk about the justice system, we talk about, offenders, we talk about crimes. And those have actually been really great for me, really great teaching moments and opportunities to share my story, but also, to gauge, when do I share, when do I not share how much I share, what point or that sort of note that semester do I share as well?

Patty

I imagine that what you say gets curated over the years, depending on your own healing, depending on your own integration of the trauma that you experienced. And also, just depending on your capacity at the time, because you give so much.

Brenda

Most definitely. Yeah. And I think at first I always felt like, oh, maybe I'm doing this, but it's not bothering me because I've talked about in court heaps before and, you know, I can easily talk about it and I can answer questions, but I think it took me a while to realise that I could sort of do that, but afterwards, I'd be really exhausted.

I'd probably go, be in quite a bad mood. It might be, later that evening, might be the next day or so, might be the, following week. So, there was that pattern happening as well. So, I think it's also part of experiencing trauma where it's that fawning response where, you know, when someone does ask you a question, you want to be compliant. You want to please. You want to sort of help as much as you can. It's definitely been a learning journey and it's, I'm still on it and that's okay.

Patty

I'm actually really glad that you mentioned it because on a smaller scale with something that isn't as big as what you experienced, Brenda, we often can relay something that happened to us and then we feel like we've got a vulnerability hangover afterwards. Because we can't see or feel our emotions like we can feel our body. There is that ‘after effect’ and it's not always immediate, is it?

Brenda

No, it isn't. And then look, it took me quite some time to figure it out. Like the connection, you would think that it'd be really easy to sort of figure it out, but because it's not immediately after, and it might not come out in ways that are very obvious either. I'm just feeling really tired or I'm just in a bad mood because someone else has done something. Maybe they have done something, but by the way you're responding to it is disproportionate, or different how you otherwise would have responded.

Patty

Yes. Yes. It's actually a wonderful explanation of how trauma works. It doesn't make sense to those of us that aren't aware. I mean, as you know, our theme for this year's podcast is ‘Caring Conversations’. With the benefit of the hindsight that you have now, what is something that a safe person could have said to you back then that could have made the world of difference in your own life?

Brenda

I think it's just letting you know that they're there for me. I don't have to share anything now if I don't wish to, but if I do, they're there to listen and they're happy to listen to how much I wish to share and how much I wish to share. And I think just maybe having that repeated and just reminded at various points in time because it's really easy when, like, something's just happened to say that to someone, but then people forget after a while.

And I was very lucky because I did have lots of really great people around me who did do those check ins which meant that when I was stuck or there were particular situations where I really needed support, it was easy to reach out. So, and it’s something I've also had to learn as well as reaching out and accepting help, and that's not always easy.

Patty

No, I can imagine. And when you say ‘having people tell you that they're there for you’, does that include letting them know or letting someone know “I'm here for you, not just when you're feeling good, I'm here for you when you're angry or sad, you don't need to be your best self for me.” Is that something that was helpful for you?

Brenda

Definitely is helpful, but it's so hard to also, take on that help, like take on the offer as well. But it’s definitely helpful because I think that for me, that was something that was, I was quite scared about.

So, being scared that if I wasn't the best version of myself because I don't have parents or I don't have a family, will I just be too much trouble? Will I just be too difficult, and people will just give up on me? I'm not sure what anyone could have said to really sort of take that away. But that's something I've just had to learn over time to get better at. That's all it is.

Patty

Yeah. Because I imagine it would be easier to ask for help if the help is offered consistently.

Brenda

It definitely is.

Patty

That's what we have to remember. It's not, “hey, I said that she can contact me, but I said it 3 months ago.” I could have said it many more times since then.

Brenda

Right. And also offering people sort of, ideas as well. Because sometimes, you know, you might want help, but you don't know what help looks like. So, it's like, oh, look, you know, I'd love to help. Can I come and make your meal? Do you wanna have coffee sometime? Let's draw a phone call. We'll give I'll give them a few different options and sometimes thinking outside the box as well. Can I just do, like, regular life with you?

You don't have to be absolutely distraught and upset for me to for me to come and help you. But you don't really don't wanna get to that point before you ask to help me either. So sometimes it's just having someone with you. Just doing stuff so you're not feeling lonely or not when it's when you are feeling quite hard inside, that's helpful.

Patty

Yeah. So even, hey, I'm running some errands. Would you like to come with me, so I don't do boring things on my own? You never know what's gonna come from that car conversation when someone's feeling so confronted by someone facing them front on.

Brenda, at 15, after going away on a school excursion, we touched on it briefly, but you experienced one of the most traumatic and unthinkable acts that anyone can endure, much less recover from. You heard from a news link on Facebook of all places, social media, that there was a homicide tragedy where parents, 2 of their children, and one of their siblings were killed and it turns out to be your family.

Brenda

Yes. That was tough. So, what had happened was that I was in New Caledonia with, my friend from school. We were there for a language excursion. We were learning French at the time. And this is no prior to smartphones and all that. So, I think my dad gave me his phone, and, you know, global running was really expensive. So, I'd only call it an emergency.

And the phone was turned off for most of the time. We were out doing activities when I would be told, because we went with my friend, from school, but also, a group of other students from local nearby schools as well. So now we're in our home stay. We were in like French language classes. We were seeing the local sites.

So we weren't on devices that much at all. And on Friday afternoon or evening, I think we, had some free time. We were at our home stay and, we're able to use their computer and my friend had logged onto her Facebook. Obviously, someone had sent her a notification where she logged on, and there was a pop up, and they knew that she was with me and sort of asked her, “is Brenda okay?” And I think both of us were a bit confused, because I think quite a few of them asked is Brenda ok?

And then one of them, sends us a link. Cause I think no one knew how to say anything or tell us what happened. So, they just sent us a news link and we opened it. No, this is also, we weren't expecting anything bad as back then, we used to send each other silly links that were sometimes silly jokes, or things that weren't serious at all. So, we opened it expecting something stupid like that.

The next thing sort of I see is, a photo of my home on, a newspaper article and being 15 as I was, and being including quite sheltered to the life. You know, things happen on the news. You know, bad things happen in the world, and they go on the news, but they're not things that that that will happen to your family. They're not they're not things that happen to people you know either. So, for me, that sort of thing, my front of my house on a news website that was made it real.

And that was a really strange feeling. Like, it's somehow this sort of virtual hypothetical news world where things that happen on the other side of the country, have now it just merged with my reality. And that was hard. And, oh, I just didn't know how to comprehend it really.

Patty

Oh, but you wouldn't, you don't the stress and the shock of it would almost make you leave your body.

Brenda

Yeah. I have a very limited number of what happened. I just remember crying a lot, that afternoon. But yeah. Yeah, I don't remember much.

Patty

Often when something traumatic happens, it's our family that's going to reach out to us. But it was your family that had been tragically taken from you. You were sent to live with your uncle.

Brenda

So, my aunt is my dad's younger sister. And so, and my aunt married my uncle. So, my uncle is, married into the family, and they used to live around the corner from us as well. So, we were quite close knit as a family. We did a lot of weekend trips together. We didn't have a lot of extended relatives in the country, so we did a lot of things together.

Patty

So, they were already familiar to you. They were already people that were perceived as very safe for you. You had no other reason to think otherwise. And you were sent to live with your aunt and your uncle for your safety. But there was a plot twist because you were anything but safe in those 2 years.

In fact, it would be 2 years before you would learn it was in fact the very uncle that had married into your family who was responsible for the murders of your family. And not only that, but in the run up to this revelation, Robert Xie had begun sexually abusing you. There's a lot to unpack here. First of all, you also had not realized that what he was doing to you was inappropriate.

Patty

Yeah. And a lot of it is cultural, and the things that he was doing to me, it felt uncomfortable, and I felt like it wasn't right, but I didn't understand that that equated to sexual assault or sexual abuse. And I think a lot of it's also the big part of it is cultural. I'm from, like, we talked earlier where my parents weren't physically affectionate.

Patty

It's almost like, did you even know how to express what had happened to you?

Brenda

No. And that's yeah. And that's where it's really hard to know.

I think there's one day I did sort of. I wanted to sit my mom down and say, “look, this is happening where I don't feel safe, please protect me from him,” because he would come over every Friday and just pick us up and take us to our grandparents' house for dinner. And I just wanted to talk to my mom about, how I don't want to be left alone with him. And I remember sort of finally, I think I tried a few times and didn't quite get a chance to sit her down, but there's one time I actually did.

And that's when I sort of had this sort of shocking realization that I actually didn't even have the language to say. So, I did try and tell her what happened because my mom's English wasn't that great. So, we spoke in Chinese at home and my Chinese was fairly, like, was sort of functional for like day to day living, but because we never spoke about some of these sorts of matters at home, it just meant that I didn't have the right words to even express what I wanted to express. And so that was the end of that. And look, and I think she was busy so, I sort of rushed into something else. So, she couldn't really wait around and she and I wasn't very sort of forthcoming with what the problem was. So that option just went.

Patty

Did anyone know that this was happening, Brenda? Because you've said that you'd not realised what had happened until many years later when you realised that you'd actually, in fact, been sexually assaulted, and this was, in fact, very illegal.

How can we facilitate safe spaces to have these kinds of conversations with people who are experiencing this and are so shocked, so confused by the trauma? But in cases such as yours, don't even necessarily have the language to disclose it, especially when we're part of subcultures where topics like this is so taboo. How can we do better? How can we be better for those who are vulnerable within our own family?

Brenda

A lot of it, I think, is just making sure we have these conversations beforehand and make it part of regular conversation.

And it's hard and it's awkward, t's embarrassing. It's hard. It's always hard to start these things, but, you know, as Grace Tame says, like, nothing is as uncomfortable as the abuse itself. So, if we don't give people the tools, or the language to talk about these things, how can they report it?

How can they sort of speak up about it? You're just making the barrier so much, much higher. So, it's normalizing these conversations. And also sort of conversations around what actually is sexual assault, sexual abuse.

It's the sort of the common sort of conception of the sexual violence is the stranger in the dark alleyway. And if you look at statistics, there's often someone that you know. So, we need to sort of have better conversations around that. And also think about, you know, how do we not just do that in mainstream society, but also how to sort of do that in subcultures as well. A need is within those, sort of subcultures, so we need to start doing that and leading the way.

Patty

Yeah. Yep. That's true. And how do we do that? I mean, what do we say? What could be some things that we could possibly say?

Brenda

Yeah. It's hard, isn't it? I think sexual assault, sexual violence. It is, right now is a time where lots of people talk about it.

It's always on the news, there are things happening. So start with those things where it's not related to yourself or it's on a news item and also just being really mindful not to engage in any victim blaming language because once someone, even if it's not about them, and you make a generalised statement like” women often lie,” or “it doesn't happen to men,” or something like If someone hears and they experience it, they will hardly ever disclose to you. So, you've sort of just, like, cut that off as well. So just being careful about what sort of language we use, and also listening to people as well.

Patty

So, Brenda, you and your aunt thought that he might have been wrongfully incarcerated and wrongfully accused?

Brenda

Yeah. Because that's what I was hearing at home all the time. That's what my aunt was saying.

Patty

That's what you were hearing at home all the time. And so that's also why it would have been safe for you to stay there because you also were told, “this is wrong, we're gonna get through this. Obviously, a mistake has been made.” And so, what happened that made you think, “hang on a minute, there's quite a few things that aren't quite right here.”

Brenda

Yeah. I think it's when I sort of, when the first trial began and some of the evidence was coming out in newspaper reports, which up until that point, I had turned a blind eye to. I didn't wanna know anything else happening. Because I firmly believed that he was innocent, and that the system had gotten it wrong because that he was a family member I know you should be able to trust your family members. And as a young person as well, who sort of relied on him for care and all that sort of stuff, you think that, you know, we can all spot horrible people, people who sort of kill other people.

We should be able to see them. Somehow, we should be able to have an instinct that it’s them, but it's not, it can't possibly be a family member. So, all that meant that I didn't believe it was him for quite some time, But it wasn't until the first trial started, and there was some stuff coming out in the media reports, which, I did see.

So, some of some evidence was coming out. It didn't make me think it was definitely him, but what it made me question was that, actually, I thought I knew everything, or I thought I knew him, but, actually, I don't know everything and that, and just because he's a family member doesn't mean I know his character, or what he is capable of and what he has done.

And because I think up until then, I always thought that I'll look into the courts or the legals before. They can't know him as well as I know him because I've known him for much longer, and I've seen him in all sorts of different situations, but it's then realising actually I don't know him. And the best I can do at that point in time is give the court all the information that I know so that I can make the best possible decision, because it's not up to me to judge.

Patty

I imagine that you would have had to come into a space to be able to process that and even make that decision when you were in shock initially. I don't know that you would have had the capacity to think so reasonably like that.

Brenda

Oh, yeah. Definitely. It was a lot, lot of thinking, a lot of time before I got there. Because I think prior to that, as soon as someone said anything, any sort of being that sort of doubted in my uncle, I went straight away to “that's harming him. I don't wanna listen to it. I won't hear it,” because that, I guess, also changed my whole sort of world view and my whole world really. Yeah.

Patty

That would have been too much. You had already landed somewhere safely to even consider that that place wasn't safe would have actually been too much for you as well. What was it like when you still live with your aunt? Because I know you spoke of the difficulties with your grandparents because you were all simply grieving and processing the trauma very differently.

Brenda

Yes. Look, my grandparents, I've thankfully, I have a really great relationship with them now. But at the time it was difficult, because we did process trauma in a very different way. They are much more public in the way they sort of express grief. I've always been a bit shy, so that didn't really work with me.

They're also really angry, which is right, understandable. I was as well, but I think we each channelled it in different ways. So, we were all processing, and it was difficult, and we just didn't communicate very well. And partly that's also a language problem as well because we weren't able to communicate because of just not having the right words to express how we were feeling and this what was happening for us. Just having a very tunnel vision for, I think, for all of us as well.

I definitely had a really, really good, school, and the support system at the school as well. They definitely got me through to university. They made sure I got to university and made sure I got further education. And I'm extremely grateful for that because without that, there's I wouldn't be able to do any of the things I do today.

Patty

And that in itself is something that we can do as a community, to be able to rally around someone that's experienced that amount of trauma and offer the assistance that is required. Brenda, what was the catalyst that helps you speak up about that awful sexual assault that you had endured?

Brenda

Well, I, at the time the trial was about to begin, and I was about to give evidence, at trial and somehow, I don't know what happened, but I finally made the connection of “actually this is sexual assault”, and also this is relevant information because I will be called at trial to give good character evidence as well. What does he like as a person? What is he like at home?

And for my whole entire life that I've known him for. And this is obviously whether someone is a perpetrator of sexual assault is obviously clear. It's a big thing, it means a lot about character. So, and also knowing that I have to go on the stand and also tell the truth as well. So, I had to sort of figure out what to do, and that was really tough because I knew that if I got on the stand and told everyone what was happening, obviously that would jeopardise my uncle's chances, of getting released as well.

Patty

It's a huge thing to hold for someone so young that had already been through unimaginable trauma.

Brenda

Yeah. It felt like I was making the decision almost, and I know it's not the case, but at the time it felt like I was making the call, which way I was gonna go. And that was really, really, really tough because I knew that also would mean I would lose the new family that I had, which was my aunt. Because, since losing my family, now I lived with my aunt, and my cousin and we were and she was, no, we were really close because I also lost a family as well. So, it's then thinking I valued that family even more.

And my aunt has been fabulous. She was very supportive of me; she did a lot for me and I'm really grateful for that. So, I knew what that meant and how disappointed she'd be and the impact it had on her as well. And that was a really big, thing for me.

Patty

It was a huge repercussion to lose the only family you had left. That would have been enormous, astronomical. In fact, you've spoken about the incredible friends and family who supported you when you weren't doing so well yourself. Many people's initial reaction would be, “well, I just don't know what to say. I don't want to say the wrong thing.” Could you speak to that a little, including how you were able to get out of what then became an unsafe environment once you had disclosed? Because I know that your once you did disclose, your relationship with your aunt then became a rupture that still hasn't repaired. Is that correct?

Brenda

Yes. That's correct. So, I haven't spoken to my aunt since. It's been quite some years now. That's okay. But I think since then, I've gained a lot of other really great family and friends, who I'm incredibly grateful for.

Patty

Even from an energetic space, it would have taken a lot to process making that decision, but then where would it have been safe for you to go afterwards?

Brenda

Yeah. So I was really, really, fortunate where, I disclosed to someone, well, one of my counsellors from school and, this was quite few years after school. She'd been sort of helping me, and we kept in contact. And she also had an extra room in her house and yeah, had me come and live with her. And I'm very, very grateful for that because, as soon as I told her, it meant that I couldn't live there anymore. And, I was welcomed into, a new family, kind of space, a safe space to go to.

Patty

And I see that there's a common theme here of like a safe person that you had stayed in contact with. A safe person who continually said, “hey, I'm still here for you. You mean a lot to me. Your wellbeing means a lot to me. And if you need me, I'm here.” And it sounds like they were, which is extraordinary.

And you say that you're lucky, but I think that's, you deserved all the luck in the world given what you'd had to navigate. What were the specific things and actions that helped you at the time from not just the person that was able to take you in, but from other people that also needed to offer you support because you were navigating yet another trauma, yet another magnitude of grief to people that you had lost, that you had to say goodbye to again. It was initially another death, wasn't it?

Brenda

Knowing that there are still people, around and who love you and care for you, no matter what. And there's a lot of credit to be given to my friends from school. Some of which I'm still very, very close with today. And they've also become sort of my second family. And I know that I can go to them when things are good, but also when things are bad. So, I've been adopted lots of different families now, which is absolutely wonderful.

Patty

Yeah. You have the reverse problem of people fighting over you now, Brenda, don't you?

Brenda

Yeah. It's great. {giggles}

Patty

Brenda, as if you weren't busy enough, in 2021, you and 4 other sexual assault survivors started the non for profit organization called the Survivor Hub. And just so you know, I've actually referred my clients to this wonderful service. And I now connect the dots and know it's you is amazing.

Brenda

That's fabulous. It's great that we're getting around a bit as well and that people are finding out about our service and what we do. So, thank you for that. Thank you for the referrals.

Patty

Well, thank you for creating something as extraordinary as you have. There are currently forgive me if I have this incorrect. There are 12 locations across New South Wales and Victoria where fellow survivors can connect and meet. Tell us about this extraordinary service, because I know that you're a very big part of it.

Brenda

Yes. No. Definitely. It's a lot of what I do, during the week, and I'm very, very passionate about it. So, so the Survivor Hub, we, run peer support groups and safe spaces for survivors to come together, connect with one another, ask questions and just really heal. And it came out of a need that, myself and the other sort of co-founders had realised, because most of us had gone through the legal system or had at least experienced the isolation of being a survivor of sexual assault.

And which is such a unique and isolating and traumatic and sort of intense experience, but then having no one to talk to, no one to connect with, no one to relate with, despite knowing the facts around statistics around, of how prevalent it is within our society. Yet because no one talks about it, you can't heal without having to sort of speak about it as well, so it sort of came out of that need of wanting to create that sort of safe space for people to go to, if they wanted to connect with others and being through something similar.

And that's quite a beautiful and really magical sort of experience as well where I remember when I met Anna for the first time. Anna and I are different people with different hobbies, different parts, you know, parts of life. She's a lot younger than I am as well, which also means that there's a whole generation gap. Half the stuff that she says, I don't understand and that's okay, but I've never been cool, but that's okay {both laugh}

But, you know, it's that instant connection in spite of all the differences that we have, because we obviously know that our 5 stories are also very different as well, but because we've had somewhat of a similar-ish experience, that instant connection is based on everything that she that she said I relate to and vice versa. And it's that being understood without the spelling it out. So, I've got fabulous friends who will listen to me and want to understand and have all the time in the world for me, which is so, so beautiful.

But sometimes you're just really exhausted, and you don't wanna sort of spell out the dots of, “ok, this is what happened, and this means x, y, and z.” But sort of speaking to another survivor, they go, “oh my goodness, these, anxieties or the concerns I'm having, things I'm struggling with, actually, that's so normal.” Also, it's okay.

And this is nothing wrong with me. So that's the Survivor Hub is really just a space for that and that was why it was built. And so, yes, Patty you just said, we run them in New South Wales, Victoria. We also run them online and we're looking at expanding across other locations throughout Australia as well just because, there's, such a great sort of need for it as well.

Patty

True that. Brenda, your work also potentially evokes your trauma and subsequent trauma response because you're constantly hearing and sharing and talking about abuse, much like you are today. And you've said that too much time on your own is not necessarily a good thing for you. So, in a way, it can be a double edged sword. You've got to be quite hyper vigilant about where you're at. No day is ever gonna be the same. No trigger will be processed in the same manner either. Can you speak to us a little bit about that, and your self care around that as well?

Brenda

Yeah. Of course. It's interesting because I felt like it’s something I've been reflecting on lately as well. Like, my whole life is a trauma response so far. Like everything I do is a trauma response. So, I go really hard at things.

But I do notice that I do get burnt out quite easily. So then there are times where I will wake up and then, go, “today is not happening.” I'm gonna try, but nothing happens. And I sort of, I'm just like a potato on a couch for a little bit too long.

So, and sometimes it's all that happens multiple times in the day as well. So, it's sometimes it's difficult to manage, but it's sort of it's sometimes works better than others as well. So yeah.

Patty

Absolutely. You know, many listeners have said that they don't understand trauma or sometimes they don't recognize it. And I think it's worth mentioning that there are several trauma responses so people know not only what to look out for, but how they can adequately respond to it. Because trauma can look like bad behaviour, like yelling or acting out, not listening, sometimes oversharing inappropriately to name a few.

Sometimes it's, “hey, the world's a bit too much. I've peopled with too many people, and I need to unpeople and be with myself for a little bit”, which is so healthy. I love that you said that. For our listeners out there who love someone that might have survived and experienced sexual violence, and they're in an intimate relationship with them, are there some tips that you can share around showing up in a way that is safe and loving and nurturing?

Brenda

I think that's such a good question actually. Because it's also such a practical question.

I think, this probably is similar to some things we talked earlier where we just it's being there for them, let them know that you're there to listen when they're ready. Letting them take a lead in terms of how much they wish to share and how much they don't want to share.

But also, you know, sometimes the survivor might be better in sharing conversations. Sometimes they won't be. But even if they're not, try and have those sorts of conversations beforehand and sort of check in with them to see how are they feeling, because it's much easier for someone to say yes or no to something than it is for them to bring up the scenario.

So, just normalizing that. And the more they feel safe, and they have safe that sort of safe and positive experiences, the better it just gets better as well. They'll also have more confidence. Yeah. I think for a lot of survivors, just wanting to know that they're heard understood. Most of it is being validated and being believed.

And that is the easiest, just asking them questions and just nodding and not asking them any questions that might lead them to think that they are not being believed or avoiding victim blaming questions as well.

Patty

So, Brenda, have there been other types of therapies that have been helpful for you? I mean, what worked for you and maybe what didn't work so well? Because you were inspired to start Survivors Hub which is a big peer support. And for some people like 1 on 1 therapy works very well, for others it doesn't. What was it like for you?

Brenda

Yeah. I think I tried, well, I went to therapy at the beginning. Well, I didn't get it for quite some time actually, because, you know, being from an Asian background, mental health isn't a real problem.

Therefore, you also don't get help for it because it's not a real problem. So, I don't think I saw a psychologist for quite some time, and I had access, obviously, to my school counsellor. She was really great. But I don't think I really sort of believed I had mental issues; I sort of was really staunch and not believing this had an effect to me.

I thought I was fine. But then, obviously, I wasn't. So, I definitely did go through a few psychologists before I sort of found a pretty good fit. Yeah. All the ones I've seen prior to him, they were lovely people.

It wasn't like they said something that was offensive, or I felt like they weren't qualified, or I felt anything. It was more didn't quite click. And so, it took quite some time. And I see my psych every 2 weeks and I've been seeing him for quite a few years now.

But I don't think I really found him until, about 5 years ago. So, for quite some time, I was just going in between different people. And then I sort of get it up after a while because it didn't really work. And obviously is expensive. And so, I think that's sticking with it and takes some time.

But also, there's lots of other things as well. And the true the Survivor Hub has been really great because I've been getting lots of different sort of strategies or ideas from people. You know, people have talked about, flotation tanks, for example, have been quite healing. I personally wouldn't go in them because I can't swim and that freaks me out, but, apparently, I hear they're great. And there are silent discos are as well. So, there's lots of also alternative, sort of strategies or healings for methods that sort of fall outside of just sort of CBT based, sort of psychology sessions.

Patty

Now I've got only a few more questions for you regarding how you can make someone else's journey a little bit easier by sharing yours. And this is specifically in relation to our theme because some listeners out there will have experienced something similar to what someone else discloses to them.

How do we show our empathy and share our story without our story becoming all about us? Because we want to hold that space for someone. And when appropriate, we wanna share that space much like you do with Survivor Hub, I imagine. But what can we do to ensure that we don't simply take the space and make it about us?

Brenda

Yes. That's something, again, I think we practice and that's quite hard to do as well because when someone connects with you, you want to sort of get everything out there. You want to connect. You wanna share your story. And that's a wonderful thing, but also its recognising sometimes you need to take a step back.

So, when we first started the Survivor Hub, I know the first our first few meetups, I remember that myself and all the co-founders, we were very quick to jump in to answer questions, that other participants had, or when I shared our aspects and our experiences, which is wonderful, and it was great.

But then as we've done more of these groups and having more experiences also realising actually there's also a lot of value in stepping back and letting other people contribute 1st and know we're there to facilitate the conversation as opposed to, taking over the space. We just wanna make sure the conversation is flowing well.

It's nice. Everyone's been respectful, jumping where we should, but also try and take that step a little bit more. And, you know, you can do that. It doesn't have to just be in a support, like, a support group at one of our meetups, but not just in regular life as well. It's I guess it's reading the social cues of the person, thinking about the context.

Are they just they're disclosing to you for the first time? Sometimes it's helpful to say, “look, actually, I've been through something similar or I felt the same way too,” or in this situation, but not me letting them sort of lead the conversation and where, they want to take it as well. So not taking over the space and not just going, oh, actually you experienced it. Let me tell you all my story.”

Patty

Or say something like,” that's nothing, you should hear what happened to me!”

Brenda

Yeah. Don't ever do that. Experiences are never comparable anyway.

Patty

Correct. Brenda, I feel like I've got a bit of a loaded question for you right now because we've had several chats offline, and we already know each other a little bit. And you've opened up and shared some really significant trauma and private pain with me. And I'm now gonna turn it into a podcast for the rest of the world.

I kind of need to know if you're okay and what I can possibly do for you if you're not. Because I'd love to know what you might need to do next in order to recalibrate from what you've just shared. I mean, we had to reschedule our chat, and you've graciously donated your lunch hour. So, there's that. First of all, have you eaten?

Brenda

Not yet. So, I'll go downstairs, once we finish and eat some food, but also, jump back into training. So, I'm looking at some training for, data collection for my PhD. So I'll go back into real life, or what I need to do, which is quite helpful for me.

It's that distraction that’s always been helpful, just having structure and having something to go to. And then later tonight, in the afternoon when I finish, I'll go back to where I'm staying. My dog's there. I'll take her for a bit of a walk, which she'll need and will absolutely love, and that'll be quite good for me.

Patty

Yeah. Okay. So that's your selfcare. That's what you're gonna do to take care of yourself. Okay. And in reference to our RAV’ers and our RAV’stars, I need to know because everyone needs to know, are you a solo walker or do you like walking with company?

Brenda

I love company. I love walking. But also just, I think it's, I find walking is a great time to catch up with people. So, it's not that it's actually good to have hard conversations then as well, but also, it's good to have easy conversations. It's good for all sorts of all sorts of conversations, really.

This is true. This is true. Brenda Lin, you are fabulous. Thank you for sharing so generously with us and imparting your wisdom.

Brenda

Thank you for having me. Thank you.

Patty

You're so welcome. And that is it for today, folks. I'm now going to pass the baton to our fabulous cofounder, Kirrily Dear, and she's going to share some amazing information about what RAV up to behind the scenes.

If you have found this episode to be helpful, please do share it with someone that you think could benefit from hearing it. Liking, subscribing, and especially leaving us a 5 star review ensures that we get to give the algorithm a helping hand to get to the listeners that need to hear from us the most. Bye from us for now.

Kirrily

Thanks Brenda and Patty for a brilliant conversation. I have learnt an enormous amount from listening to the 2 of you. I always walk away a wiser person when I have the opportunity to listen to someone who has lived through an extraordinary experience.

And Brenda, your ability to articulate what has gone on for you and to help us all learn from that. It's an incredible skill you'll have and thank you for your kindness and your generosity. I'm Kirrily Dear and I am one of the founders of Run Against Violence. Run Against Violence is a not for profit volunteer led organization dedicated to the prevention of family violence. Our mission is to build communities where family violence can no longer live.

And one of our key strategies is to have these caring conversations happening throughout our communities. I walked away with 3 key learnings from today's interview. Firstly, I really value the insight around the fact that a caring conversation doesn't necessarily have to be using words. Most of the communication that goes on between human beings is non-verbal. So to be able to care for someone and to help that person feel like they are cared for, sometimes it's just about doing stuff together.

Simple stuff, going for a walk, inviting them to come along and do the shopping with you. Help them be part of what we consider a fairly normal lifestyle. When you're going through extraordinary experiences, often normality is your saviour. The second key takeaway I had from today is that children especially, don't always have the words to describe what they are feeling, and that becomes an enormous barrier to communication. So, it's on the rest of us to help break down that barrier.

Through observing what's going on for that child, noticing changes in behaviour, all those sorts of things that enable us to start the conversation and to have the patience to listen. And finally, I think a really simple but important tip is to let the person lead their conversation about their life.

Too often we want to overcome our own discomfort in those challenging conversations by offering lots of detail about our own lived experience. When in fact, what we need to be doing is asking good questions, then listening, learning what's going on for them and helping them step through what they need to have happen.

K A Dear2 September 2024