From Trauma to Triumph: Overcoming Abuse and Addiction
Tarsha Jones is a proud Gomeroi woman who only learned of her Aboriginal heritage as a teenager. She opens up to Patty Kikos about how family violence impacted her life when a drunk driver hit her brother, caused him to have frontal lobe damage, and left him drug-addicted for 25 years. When Tarsha left her emotionally abusive husband, who was an alcoholic, she never expected that her life would turn upside-down. But it would then become the right way up after she completed a TAFE course, changed careers, and, after much deep listening and unexpected soul searching from both her and her husband, found their way back to each other - in a much healthier way.
After listening to this episode, Kirrily reflects on the importance of respectful relationship normalisation and healthy self-esteem and how those two elements can be highly dependent on each other. To have communities free from family violence, we don’t need people to be perfect. What we do need is for our relationships to be healthy. So, thank you, Tarsha. Thank you. Thank you for being so willing to openly share in ways that we can all understand what the journey ahead of us will be like as we all take steps together to prevent family violence.
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Transcript
Tarsha
After my study, I had so much guilt of what I'd let my kids go through. I remember sitting in the domestic violence class, bawling my eyes out, trying not to let anyone see that I was crying because I had guilt. I had so much guilt of what I'd let my kids go through. And I found myself in situations where I would come home and pick fights with my older kids, because that was my norm. Right?
There was a fight every day. It was my norm. And when Nigel had completely gone, I was like, “who am I gonna have my fight with today?” But I could recognize that that's what I was doing. I recognized straight.
I was like, “oh my god, you idiot, what are you doing? You're coming home and kicking butt with your 2 older children, because that's your norm?”
So, I had a lot of reality checks. I had a lot of strength, and I had some beautiful people around me from my studies that could support me. And I made a massive change, and it was really, really important for me particularly to show my girls, that you can do this. You don't need to be stuck in something, in a situation, in an environment, in a marriage that you're not gonna thrive in. You can get yourself out, and you can change your life. And I did it.
Patty
Hello. I'm Patty Kikos, and welcome to the latest episode with Tarsha Jones. She has a story that is not only inspirational and thought provoking, it's also honest, vulnerable, sometimes hilarious, but very real and very raw.
There were so many poignant beginnings in her life since birth. When she was 1, her older brother was hit by a semi-trailer that caused him to have frontal lobe damage, and had started drinking and experimenting with illicit substances by the time he was 15, and was ultimately drug addicted for 25 years.
In her teens, Tarsha discovered that the missing piece she'd been longing for all her life was, in fact, connected to her Aboriginal heritage that had been kept a secret from most of her family for many years. Embracing her cultural heritage also meant being rejected by both her white and black sides of her family.
Tarsha also shares her extraordinary story of leaving her emotionally abusive and alcoholic husband and moving into a shed with her 4 children, 2 that had special needs.
If that wasn't challenging enough, she enrolled in a TAFE course that would then change the trajectory of her life, not only because she went from living off government benefits, to earning $80,000 within a year, but because she took responsibility for her own triggers and trauma.
And a beautiful plot twist also unravelled as she and her husband embarked on a journey together, and not only did they heal, they reconciled. This is part of her magical story.
Alright, Tarsha. There's a lot to unpack about your upbringing, and I almost don't know where to start because you had a few different beginnings. So maybe let's start with the location. You currently reside in Queensland and live on a property with horses, but you come from Gomeroi land. Let's chat about why this is significant.
Tarsha
Yeah. So Gomeroi land is, my cultural belonging.
That's where I'm from. So, I'm actually from Moree, which is a small country town in New South Wales. Born and bred and raised there, until I went away to school. So, and then my parents moved to Queensland, to better support my brother. But, yeah, that that's my country.
That's, you know, where my Aboriginality stemmed from. So, it's got a lot of significance to me. It's important to me. So, I try to go home and be on Country as often as I can.
Patty
Offline, you and I have had many conversations about how we are both connected to 2 different cultures.
You mentioned your Aboriginal lineage, but this wasn't always the case with you. In fact, it wasn't until you were 16 years old that you even knew that you had Aboriginal heritage. How did that get uncovered?
Tarsha
Well, my mother was doing our family history. So, she was doing my dad's side and her side. She was very passionate, and dived in very deep into to doing this work. I actually started to uncover it when I was a bit younger, but I wasn't sort of told until I was about 16. So, the stories started coming out. Mum started finding the evidence. Like, I have my whole family history, which a lot of Aboriginal people don't have.
Patty
How did your mum find the evidence?
Tarsha
Day in day out, like, she would go through archives. I have all birth certificates, death certificates, marriage certificates. I have photos. I have criminal history records, that my mom has collected. We used to go into communities. She would interview Elders. That that spoke to our connection and who our family and who our mob were.
But it's on my grandmother's side and she was actually dying of breast cancer, and I was about 10 at this stage. So, she actually asked my mum to stop doing it until she'd passed. So, my mum respected that, and then went back into it after my grandmother passed, and that's when we were going into communities and, speaking to Elders because they had all the storytelling. Right? They knew the history.
So, yeah, I've met some amazing Elders. Had no idea of my own identity back at that stage. But yeah. And look, my dad found out when he was about 18. So, everybody knew except we weren't allowed to talk about it. My family don't acknowledge our cultural identity, apart from my dad, my brother and myself.
Patty
Wow. Let's unpack that a little bit. So, your dad knew when he was 18, he kept it a secret. And your mum uncovered it, but it's not from your mum's side that you get your Aboriginal heritage from.
Tarsha
No. No. It's quite confusing ey?
Patty
Not really. It's actually fascinating. Is your mum open to your Aboriginal heritage?
Tarsha
Yes and no.
Patty
Wow, so much to unpack. Let's just go with first of all, is your mom open to your Aboriginal heritage? And then I want to go back and find out about how your dad discovered his.
Tarsha
Okay. Look, she knows that we're Aboriginal. She can be a little racist at times. She can make comments, that aren’t inappropriate at times.
But I've learned to be strong and sort of thought back to that and be like, “now hang on a sec”. You know, she said, “but you weren't raised black”. And I said, “no, I wasn't raised black because we didn't know”. And I said, “plus, where I grew up, you know, you wanted to raise me as a strong white woman, not as a black woman because, you know, you didn't want me to be a part of that Aboriginal community.”
So, you know, I went to boarding school, and I had beautiful clothes, and I lived you know, I had elocution lessons! {laughs}
Patty
Did you??
Tarsha
Yes. My brother and I, which we laugh about now. But, you know, I was supposed to go to June Dally Watkins.
You know, that's the life my mum wanted. And I'm not saying anything bad, I loved my childhood growing up, but I always knew that there was a disconnection of something. There was something missing.
Patty
So, you had a sense of it before it was confirmed that your heritage was Aboriginal. Okay. Let's go back to when your dad found out when he was 18, he was still a glimmer in his eye. You were barely a thought in his head. How did he find out about it?
Tarsha
So, I wasn't born. My brother was, but I was not born when my dad found out.
He was at work. He worked as a slaughterman at the abattoir with a lot of Aboriginal men. They were talking one day about shearing. My dad said, “oh, you might know my uncle. He's a really well known shearer,” said his name, and this Aboriginal man turned around and goes, “oh, you're my cousin.”
And dad goes, “no, no, you're Aboriginal, I'm white.” And he goes, “no, no mate, you're my cousin.” So, dad just let it go and he went home and went to his father, who's not Aboriginal, and said, “this happened at work today, is it true?” And my grandfather's response was, “yes, it is, but don't say a word to your mother.” {Patty gasps}
So, my grandfather was not a racist man. He was a beautiful man, like, very accepting, of all cultures. So, he wasn't racist at all, but he knew what it meant for my grandmother.
Patty
So, repercussions you mean that it would mean for her?
Tarsha
Yeah. Because they were treated quite poorly, her and her sisters growing up. When she moved to Moree, she had that opportunity to not be known as Aboriginal. And, you know, back in that Stolen Generation, back in that era, why would you not do that? Right? Like, look how Aboriginal people were treated.
Look at history. Look at colonisation. Look at, you know, all those things. So why would they? So, yes. So, dad knew then, but it wasn't until mum started doing their family history that he actually started being like, “oh, wow. I'm related to that person”. Oh, like, he always tells me the story of, a lady, Mrs Brennan that lived across the road. He goes, “oh, she was a beautiful soul, Tarsha. You know, like beautiful, beautiful woman.
I was actually related to her, and I used to hang out with her children, and we're related, but I wish I had the time now to actually go and say to her, I know we're related.”
Patty
Oh, that's so precious. I mean, this is what I was referring to earlier when I mentioned that there were a few beginnings because you'd been raised as a white person in a very black community. And all of a sudden, you find out about your heritage, which you identify with strongly. Did the Aboriginal community accept you when they discovered?
Tarsha
Yeah. Definitely. Back home, it's a little bit different because, you know, I've been on a journey. I fully accept my identity and my cultural heritage. I'm proud of who I am.
It's actually made me very strong, compared to where I was when I look back. But I don't go back home and preach my Aboriginality because to me, I'm trying to be respectful. They didn't know me as an Aboriginal woman or a young girl. So, I'm being respectful to my community by actually getting myself known in my community I live in now, which I have done. And hopefully, you know, the Murray Grapevine, that'll feed down, which it is.
It most definitely is feeding down. And I remember talking to my best friend back home who I grew up with, who was an Aboriginal woman. She said to me, because I've struggled sometimes. And I've said like, when I went back to Country once I said to her, “I feel like I don't belong. I feel like I'm not connected here,” and she said, “you left as one person, Tarsh, and you need to come back in as who you are now.” So that's what I'm doing. But, yeah, it hasn't always been roses. Like, it's been tough, but it's a fight I'm willing to fight because it means so much to me.
Patty
So, you were best friends back when you thought you were white. The only discovered that you were black. And did she say, “yeah, I kind of knew this all along.” Did she know?
Tarsha
Yep.
Patty
Really?
Tarsha
Yep. Yes. She did. I remember when I went home, a few years ago, and I said to her, “did you know I was Aboriginal, Kelly?” And she's like, “yeah, Tarsh. I did.” And I was like, “why didn't you tell me?” And she goes, “it wasn't my place to tell you.”
And I said, “how did you know?” And she said, “you know that day you went to Gunnedah, and your mum was interviewing an Elder?” And I said, “yeah, yeah, yeah.” She said, “well, I was at my grandmother's house, and I was telling my grandmother, and my grandmother goes, you know they're Aboriginal, don't you?”
Patty
Ooohh!
Tarsha
So, I think how respectful all of them of us were, because we didn't sort of know, but then we sort of did know.
They knew all along, but they never ever once made me feel any less of a person, they were really quite accepting of our journey. Kelly's been at the forefront of my journey. Like, she's really helped along the way of me feeling connected. When I'm unsure about things, I know I can go to her, and she gives me that guidance.
Patty
This is what TV shows and movies are made, Tarsha. Now what about your family? Were they supportive or were they divided? Because I know you mentioned that due to self-preservation, not all of them had been in touch with their own journey and heritage. Let's start with your mum's side and then move on to the response from your dad's side. Because I want to know if your dad's sisters also accept this as their legacy.
Tarsha
On my mum's side, they knew. They would share race racial slurs, racial comments, not necessarily directed at me, but I have heard them direct them at my dad before. I would say they were racist, definitely. We all grew up in Moree, which is a large Aboriginal community, and they were quite racist.
On my dad's side, it's a very different story. So, they don't acknowledge at all. I've actually been disowned by my dad's family because I do acknowledge.
Patty
What a plot twist?
Tarsha
I know. It's, it's a lot.
I've actually said to my dad, “that's their story to tell, this is mine.” So, I actually don't it doesn't bother me. If they want to disown me, then so be it. Because I'm not gonna stop doing what I do.
You know, they've seen interviews I've done. They've seen some of my storytelling, and that's what they don't like. So, you know, it is what it is. I'm not gonna stop being who I am. And if they don't want to communicate with me or talk to me, then so be it.
I did struggle with my dad's older sister because I was quite close to her growing up. She's got daughters that were around my age. We played a lot together. We did a lot of things together. She was the first one to sort of get upset, and that did bother me for a little bit because I didn't want her to, I don't know, not “not approve of me”, but I just have respect for her, and I still do. So, when if I have opportunities to be around her, I don't bring anything up because I want to be respectful, which is hard for me because that's not my truth. Right?
But she has actually started talking to me again, but my dad's younger sister, I don't care. Like, she has completely shunned me sitting at a dining room table with all of my children. I was like, “yeah, whatever.” I don't care, and I'm always respectful. Like, when I've been in situations like that, when there's been other people around from back home, and they'll say, “what do you do for a job?” I'll tell them what I do, but I don't say “I'm in an identified role” or, like, “I'm the Aboriginal Partnership Specialist,” I don't do that because I'm being respectful to my dad because I don't want him to have to deal with that bullshit. Because that's what it is.
Patty
It's also being respectful of the junction that someone else is on with their journey. But I also feel like you could easily have become the angry black woman.
Tarsha
But I'm not. That's not who I am. It's not who I portray myself to be. It's not who I want to be. So, I just let it go. I'm like, that's your story, this is mine, so be it.”
Patty
Tarsha, in terms of the racism that you've experienced, ironically, it has come from both sides of your family. Intergenerationally, many of your indigenous relatives rejected their Aboriginal heritage, obviously, because of self-preservation and the need for it. They saw firsthand the consequences of being racially profiled, children taken from their families and the negative stigma from society, which I know you also experienced at school and afterwards.
What about your children? 1 of your daughters won't tick a box that says she's Aboriginal after she experienced a traumatic event when she was younger. And her lighter skinned sister, is on the receiving end of reverse racism, because people claim that she's just too white to be Aboriginal.
Tarsha
Yeah. I know.
It's like it's tough. Yeah. My daughter did experience a situation that happened to her at school, where Child Safety came in and actually removed her and took her to the hospital. I had to meet her there with, detectives. They wouldn't let me hold her to find out that what actually occurred happened at school.
She fell on a pencil. But, you know, the way we were treated, the way I wasn't allowed to hold her, and she's obviously crying for me. And I got questions, “who's in your home, what men are around your daughter,” all that sort of stuff. So, it was really tough. And Georgia, I guess, has also seen from the work that I do, how sometimes when you identify as Aboriginal, it goes against you.
So, she doesn't tick that box, you know, for her children, which is really quite sad. Whereas Ella, she's the complete opposite. She's like, “I just want black skin mum. Just let me be black.”
Sometimes she'll say to me when she's been in situations at school and people don't believe that she's Aboriginal, she says, 'Can you just walk in and pick me up today?' And I'm like, 'You're in high school mate, what do you want me to walk in and pick you up for?' And she goes, 'Because your skin's darker mum, they're actually gonna believe when they see you.' And I was like, ‘oh okay.' So I've done that on several occasions for her.
But she struggled with it because she's so connected to culture, and she's so strong and she's got a really strong voice and speaks up and speaks her truth and will also speak to people that aren't speaking the truth about our communities and our mob, and so she struggles with being so white. And, you know, as aunties have said to her, many Elders have said to Ella, ‘it's not about the colour of your skin’.
But she goes, “I just want to be black.” And she says it all the time. And, you know, she she's quite a character around that stuff. She'll make up dances and stuff and start moving around going, “I'm black and deadly.” But she's this fair white skinned young girl. She looks like her father who has, a Belgium background. So unfortunately, she didn't get the splash of colour in her skin.
Patty
But she has it in her soul, which is amazing.
Tarsha
She does. She so does.
Patty
Now, Tasha, as you know, the theme for this year's podcast series is ‘Caring Conversations’. How can we initiate them or respond to people so that we can be an ally to our Indigenous brothers and sisters in a way that is respectful and sustainable?
Tarsha
Yeah. I think, look, it's been really tough in our communities after The Referendum.
Really, really tough. That was like, the racism that went on during and after the Referendum has been really tough for us as mob. I remember just taking a few days off work, because I didn't want to have to respond to people. There was a lot of expectations put on us during the Referendum. And then at the end, the same thing, like, “how are you feeling? Why do you think that happened? Oh, we knew it was gonna happen.”
You know, just the questions. So, I think it's really important. As Mob, we are so accepting, and we are so resilient, and we keep fighting fights. Right?And we keep putting out fires. So, I think it's really important to walk alongside us, not in front of us or behind us. Don't lead. Just be there and beside us and understand, and truly do deep listening. You know...
Deep listening for us is not always actions or solutions or it's just listening. It's being silent and listening. And I think sometimes that gets forgotten and people want to come in and fix or they want to change, or let's do this and let's do that, you know, just listen. Listen to our experiences and what we're going through and understand how resilient we are. Because as a community, look, if the rest of the world was as resilient as our mob and our communities are, there'd be no issues in the world.
Patty
True that. Now while all of this was percolating in the background over many years, your family experienced the trauma of your brother, that had frontal lobe damage when he was run over by a semi-trailer. He was 3. You were 1. So, from the time you can remember, did any of his actions involve any violence?
Tarsha
Yep. So, he was drug addicted for 25 years. The violence was significant. Not so much towards me. I would get verbal abuse. But, yes, with my parents, he's tried to fight my dad. He's dragged my mum by her hair. He kicked her. He's hit her, all while he was high on drugs. I have had an incident with him where he came close to trying to hit me.
So yeah. It was the violence in the later stages of his drugs before, he actually gave it up. Like, it was tough. It was we were constantly calling triple zero. But then he would do things where he would come to us, and he knew it was a cry for help.
So, he would pull a knife out on me. And I knew he was never gonna hurt me with that knife, but he knew that I would call the police, and I would get him help. He needed a break.
Patty
What would that then mean for Jamie?
Tarsha
Well, he knew that the police would come. He knew that we would stand in front of him so that police wouldn't draw their guns out because he had a weapon. But then that meant he would go to the mental ward for a period of time, and he would get a break.
Patty
I see.
Tarsha
So that happened quite a bit towards the end, of his drug addiction.
Patty
I an only imagine what that would have done to your nervous system
Tarsha {chortles}
Look. I've done car chases. I've gone and paid off drug dealers. I sat at a drug dealer's house ready to ram my car through their house if they touched my brother. Like, people don't realise, and for him, and I think it's with his brain damage, he doesn't understand the traumas and how it impacted on us.
He only sees how it impacted on him. So, I've actually had to sit him down a few times and go, “but, actually, it impacted on all of us”. You know, we've had to chase him through bushes. I said that impacted us. Now I was 9 months pregnant running through bushes once with him, trying to save him.
So, I don't think he'll ever fully understand how it impacted on us. He only sees his vision and what happened to him. But it was huge. It was massive, and it was a massive part of my life. And I actually had to ‘educate’, for a better word, my husband because he'd be like, “oh my god, he's doing it again. Oh my god. The police. You gotta go again.”
I was like, “I will never ever walk away from my brother because he didn't ask to be run over by a truck. He didn't ask to have a frontal lobe brain damage. He didn't ask for that accident to happen. The truck driver was a drunk driver. He didn't ask to be where he was. And the doctors never ever fully educated mom and dad on the impacts of frontal lobe brain damage. So that's why none of us ever gave up.
Patty
I mean, because of how close you and Jamie were, it was inevitable that you would become enmeshed, because this is something that's not uncommon in families where there's a health concern, or a drug and alcohol issue. In a few moments, we're gonna discuss how supportive he was for you when you separated from your husband at the time.
And I know that you've said during all 4 of your births, you made it abundantly clear that none of your 4 children would be exiting your uterus until he got there. But on the flip side, you've also had to set clear boundaries, especially when his behaviour would become aggressive. And by the same token, though, you're also torn by the fact that you never wanna leave him, but you need to set up very clear parameters to ensure that you are very safe and that he knows that there are limits around you. Can you walk us through how you do that?
Tarsha
Yeah. And look, it can be really, really challenging. I've had to say, “I will never go through what we've all been through again. So, if you choose that life or if you choose to go down that path or if you choose to show aggression towards mum, dad, or myself, or my children, then you won't be a part of my life.” And I've had to make that really clear, which is really tough.
The longest I've ever gone without speaking to him was a month, was when he charged at me and came very close to hitting me. And that was tough, but all of his sorry were all still based about him. And I was like, “then you're not sorry, you don't actually understand what you've done,” which I know with a head injury can be very challenging. But yeah, I needed him to understand what he'd done.
Patty
Was there something that had triggered that response in him when he charged at you?
Tarsha
He had a relapse, and he was coming back down off drugs.
Patty
I see.
Tarsha
So, he was clean for 10 years. 10, 11 years.
And then he's had a little hiccup, which we think he's getting through it. But, I won't live that life again. I won't put my children through that. My 2 older children, I didn't hide his drug addiction or abuse from them because to me, they needed to understand what drugs can do to you. And also, it's who my brother is. Right? Like, I can't change that, so let's go with it.
Patty
So, school will teach you this, kids. Uncle Jamie will be a cautionary to tell so that you never take drugs.
Tarsha
Yeah. And, you know, my kids are probably witnessing stuff that they shouldn't have, but I couldn't actually get them out of the situation. I wouldn't have, kept them in this situation voluntarily, but I couldn't get them out of the situation. But, you know, my kids love him. They all love him. So, and I think that's what keeps him going. Right? Like, he knows my 4 kids adore him.
Patty
Yeah. Now, Tasha, fast forward a few years. You've met your great love. You get married. You have children. You have told me that the 1st 10 years could be described as loving, healthy, functional even. Tell us more about what that was like and why that changed. I mean, was it a dynamic that it always been there? Was it something that crept into your relationship in maybe an insidious kind of way? Or was it something completely out of the blue?
Tarsha
I wouldn't say it was out of the blue. I would say my life was chaotic, you know, with my brother, with everything going on. My husband has his own traumas from his own childhood, and I think it was something that just kept growing. And, yeah, we had 10 years of bliss, and then he started drinking.
Patty
Was that the catalyst, Tarsh?
Tarsha
Mhmm.
Patty
That he started drinking. Okay.
Yep. Yep. Look, I always say to him, even now, like, he has an addictive personality. He's always gotta be addicted to something, but this was the one addiction I couldn't move him away from. I couldn't help him as much as I tried.
I couldn't get him to see what it was doing. So, then he probably drank for 15 years. And when I say drink, I mean DRINK. Like, he would pull over on the side of the road and scull 2 bottles of wine before I came home. He thought I would be oblivious to it, but when you've got a brother that's a drug addict, mate, you know every sign of every drug, of every bit of alcohol.
You know, like, that's your trigger. Right? Like, you know. And then when he come home, he'd just have a 6 pack. And so he thought I was unaware? And I was like, no. No. No. No. No. So, things got really, really tough.
Patty
So, would he get angry when he drank eventually? Would he lash out?
Tarsha
Eventually, yes. Because and look, I always say he's not fully to blame.
Because of the person that I am, I didn't wanna stand for it. So, I'd argue. Right? Which was probably a stupid thing to do. But when I look back, I had to have my piece. I had to have my say. He was not physically abusive towards us. Yes, he would punch holes in walls and smash things. It was emotional abuse that that we experienced.
To the point I would put the kids to bed, and I'd either cry myself to sleep. I'd sleep in our horse float at the front of our house, to make sure I was safe. I would you know, there were so many things that people didn't realise that I was doing. I was isolated. I didn't have friends around me.
I had one friend that knew what was going on. But I also didn't feel I could tell my parents the degree of what was going on. Yeah. There was the shame. There was, I didn't think my mom would understand. I knew my dad would, but and I knew my dad would support me, and mum was great, but they didn't know the extent of what was going on.
Patty
You said that one friend knew. What did they say to you?
Tarsha
Look, she was going through her own trauma. We were we were probably bad for each other because we really, we were just there to listen to each other and that's all that would happen.
Patty
So, there's something poignant here because, in another conversation we've had, you've said that many of your ruptures with your husband never got repaired because he could never recall what had occurred. So, he could never be accountable and apologise for an encounter that, well, he could never remember really. And so, could anyone in your life back then have done anything differently? I mean, I know that there are plenty of listeners here that will hear your interview, who are close to someone that is experiencing exactly what you did, and they'll be wondering what they can do, how they can reach out, and what might be the best thing to say.
Tarsha
I think too it goes back to that deep listening. If you have someone around you that can just listen and understand and not judge, that’s why so many people, whether it's women or men, don't often talk about it because they have that fear of being judged or not understood you know. I used to really, really hate when people say, “oh, why don't people just leave?” They actually don't understand the implications and the complications of, “oh, I'll just leave.” It doesn't work like that at all.
And, you know, I guess you can have a village around you, but you've gotta have the strength to do it. And that can be really, really challenging. And it's even harder, like you said, my husband didn't remember. He would be so wiped out. He and I the next morning, I could say things like, “oh, do you do you remember doing that?” And he just looked at me, blank face. You know, he had no idea. Or he'd see the hole in the door or the hole in the wall. And I'm a really good pastor now. {both giggle}
Patty
So, tell me about your turning point. What made you leave and how did you devise a safe exit strategy? Because you did this on your own without a counsellor, a psychologist, or a social worker, that would be able to help you get a safety plan together.
Tarsha
Yeah. I knew that I had to get the children out of the environment. I knew that it wasn't a place that we all needed to be every day.
Like, it was just draining and emotionally, it was just horrific. And so, our lease was coming up where we were living, and so I made a plan to move myself and my children into a shed because I knew that, yes, he would come to the shed, but it wouldn't last.
Patty
So, you're in a shed. You've got your 4 children with you. 2 of them have special needs, by the way. You're broke. You're relying on government payments to help you pay the bills, and you'll be damned if your daughter doesn't get to be with her horses. So, at this stage, you and your estranged husband are in contact because you don't have much help with the older 2 children. And interestingly, you said that you weren't comfortable leaving him with the younger 2, because you didn't trust that he'd be able to meet their needs.
Tarsha
Well, I knew that he would drink drive, and he would do those things. And I knew my kids weren't safe. So, yeah, I was. I was, determined, and I remember sitting there going, “I need to get a job,” because he was the income earner. Right?
Because that was a big reason why a lot of people stay. “Like, how am I gonna survive?” So yep, I went on a single parent payment, which isn't enough to get you through, but I managed. And I started looking for work. And even though previously I’d had my own business, I had done things.
People didn't wanna look at me because I hadn't worked for 6 years. So, I was a stay at home mom with the 2 younger kids. So, I couldn't get a job, and I was like, “what am I gonna do? I need to do something.” So, I enrolled in a diploma at TAFE. And I actually said to my parents, I'm gonna need your help because if I just enrolled online, I never would have done it. I needed to go there physically and do it.
Patty
You needed to be accountable.
Tarsha
I did! Because, you know, when you do something, and the moment you get that little bit of, oh, “this is a bit tough,” online you can just leave it I knew if it was face to face, I couldn't do that. So that's what I did, and I signed up for a diploma of Child, Youth, and Family Intervention of all things. So, Child Protection system, domestic violence, you know.
Patty
The irony is not lost on me.
Tarsha
No. But I think why I did that course is my lived experience. And doing that course was tough. I went 4 days a week to actual TAFE, but I was determined. And my educators had no idea what I was going through. They didn't know I was living in a shed with 4 kids and the things that I'd experienced because I wasn't one of those ones like, there were a lot in the class that would stand up and tell their story day in, day out. I wasn't one of them.
I knew where I needed to be and what I needed to do. And through that time, I had times where I'd have $10 a fortnight left to my name. And I'd be like, “I don't know how I'm gonna do this, but I'm gonna do it.” My 2 younger children cottoned on that when I needed to do an assessment, I'd put them to bed in the shed, and I'd be like, right. I'll sit down. I'll do this assessment. Do you think they'd go to bed? No!
So, I started working out that if go to bed at the same time as them, and I'll get up at 4am, and I'll do it while they're asleep. So that's how I did things. My brother was instrumental. He helped me with the kids so much, like picking them up from school, dropping them at school, doing all that sort of stuff. He really, really supported me. And I got through 12 months of study, which was amazing. Like, I never thought I could.
Patty
Well, what was even more amazing is within a year, you've gone from receiving government benefits, to holding a qualification, and then earning $80,000 a year.
And this is important to hear for anyone who thinks that they need to get a university qualification to be successful because you, Tarsha, are living proof that you don't.
Tarsha
Yeah. No, you don't.
Patty
It's fair and accurate to say that you had up levelled your life exponentially. Were there any other changes you made at that point? I mean, any dead wood that needed to be cut? Any ghosts that needed to be put to rest?
Tarsha
Look. It was tough when I was studying. I just focused on that. I could only focus on one thing at a time. I couldn't focus on how I was going to change things, how I was going to, you know.. but I eventually moved out of the shed and I moved into a house, and my husband would come back. And he would stay with the kids on the weekend because my daughter would be at horse shows that I had to take her to, but that didn't last because the drinking was still happening, the emotional abuse, the verbal abuse was still happening.
Patty
I can only imagine that there would have been resentment building from both ends as well.
Tarsha
100%. After my study, I had so much guilt of what I'd let my kids go through. I remember sitting in the domestic violence class, bawling my eyes out, trying not to let anyone see that I was crying because I had guilt. I had so much guilt of what I'd let my kids go through. And I found myself in situations where I would come home and pick fights with my older kids, because that was my norm. Right?
There was a fight every day. It was my norm. And when Nigel had completely gone, I was like, “who am I gonna have my fight with today?” But I could recognize that that's what I was doing. I recognized straight.
I was like, “oh my god, you idiot, what are you doing? You're coming home and kicking butt with your 2 older children, because that's your norm?”
So, I had a lot of reality checks. I had a lot of strength, and I had some beautiful people around me from my studies that could support me. And I made a massive change, and it was really, really important for me particularly to show my girls, that you can do this. You don't need to be stuck in something, in a situation, in an environment, in a marriage that you're not gonna thrive in. You can get yourself out, and you can change your life. And I did it.
Patty
Well, then there was another plot twist. And it was the same man you married who was the father of your 4 children that you had left because of his alcoholism, because of his abuse and violent outbursts. Something changed that led you to reconcile. And did you expect this?
Tarsha
No, look, I never thought we would fully be apart for as long as we were. It's probably about 3 years. But I remember my older daughter coming home and saying, “mum, dads got a girlfriend.” I lost it!
Patty
Oh, really? {both laugh}
Tarsha
And it wasn't like a jealous thing or anything like that. It was more, “how could you? We were going to grow old together!”
You'd never given me any closure. I've worked so goddamn hard to flip my life around and recognise my faults, and you're living your best life with a girlfriend and partying and having a great life. I just lost it, and it was quite ironic because I kept crying. My mother was saying, “oh, good, he's gone.” My daughter was being abusive to the girlfriend. Like, ‘you're not my mum, don't you talk to me!’
Like, it was just it was so, and I was like, no, I need to change this situation because I can't have that, that's going back into that trauma. Right? It's reliving it again and being triggered again. And I was like, I need closure, and I need closure for the kids.
Patty
So, was the road to resolution all rainbows and unicorns, or was it bumpy and rocky?
Tarsha
I wanna say both. Like, when he first came over, so I asked him to come over when I didn't have the kids, that had gone to his dad for the weekend, the 2 younger kids. So, I didn't have any kids here, and I said, ‘oh, you need to come over’. And he's like, ‘why?’ And, like, you can think he wasn't paying child support. He wasn't helping me, you know, raise these children. Nothing.
He was partying with my eldest son. That's the environment. And I he said, why am I coming over? I'm like just to even get him to answer. And that would trigger me because I'm like, I need you to respond, and he wouldn't. And I said, because George has told me you've got a girlfriend, which is all okay. I said, but I actually need closure. I need closure from you. We were together for, 25 years. Like, I need closure.
But I did get to sit down with him and actually say, I thought we would grow old together. I don't understand. And he's sort of saying to me, ‘you know, this girlfriend, it's nothing. It's just more to have a friend around’, and I'm going, oh, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.’ And I said, ‘but it's actually dividing your kids. Like, you know, one couldn't care less. One's distraught and is gonna abuse everyone, and the 2 young ones don't understand, like, what is going on?’ So, we just kept having conversations. And then I guess one thing led to another, and next minute he was coming over more, but I never actually let him come over while the kids were here.
Patty
And you repaired the rupture in private. And it sounds like you both started actually speaking and doing that thing that you spoke of earlier, which is deep listening to each other.
Tarsha
Yeah. Yeah. And I actually recognised my faults to him. And I think it was the big thing for him, because he always thought the blame was solely on him and it wasn't. I had my own faults.
I recognised I was not perfect in that marriage and that sometimes I was triggering the situation. But still doesn't make it okay what we were all going through. So, I recognised my fault and he actually seen what I was doing for a job and how I'd actually changed, and I wasn't this erratic, irrational person anymore.
And I remember a few times he sat down, and he cried, and he said, “I'm so sorry for what I put you all through.” And he was still drinking. Even when he came back, he was still drinking but the aggression was completely gone. And I actually set boundaries, and I said if this is gonna work, I will never ever go back to the place it was. And the moment it goes there, it's over. Like, if it goes there once, I'm out. I can't go through that again.
So, he's done a lot of self-reflection as well, and he's done a lot of work. And he actually went and studied the same diploma.
Patty
No way. Really?
Tarsha
He kept saying to me, I wanna do what you do, and I used to laugh at him and go, “you can't, you're not a black fella.”
And he'd be like, “you know what I mean Tarsh, I wanna support and help people.” And I think when you have so much lived experience Yep. 100%. It it's more than a piece of paper.
And you can walk alongside people. You can walk us alongside them and actually understand what they're going through because you've been through something similar or the same, and you've got through it. So you can actually support them in in a way that has meaning. You know?
Patty
So many changes happened in your family dynamics. I mean, he's now, you've said, incredibly close to the younger 2. In fact, it was your husband who was the one who stopped work when you decided to take Darcy, your youngest son, out of the school environment that he was not thriving in, and he's been alcohol free for how many months now?
Tarsha
8 months.
Patty
That's extraordinary. And your career has also gone from strength to strength, and you've become the main breadwinner for the family. Your estranged husband is now very much your husband again and is a huge supporter of you, your work, your cultural journey. Are there any blips or hiccups anymore? And if so, how do you navigate them?
Tarsha
Oh, look. There's always hiccups. I mean, every late relationship has a hiccup. And when you live in my household, it can be quite chaotic. I've got 2 kids with special needs. I have 4 children, a grandbaby, another grandbaby on the way, and it's chaotic. But I think we've learnt to talk to each other differently.
We have better understanding and my two sons actually struggled when my husband started changing the language he would use. Doing the diploma, he would speak in a different language, and they were like, “what's going on with dad?” I can't cope with the way he talks because before it was all aggression. Yeah. And now it was more coming from I actually understand.
Have you thought about this? What about doing things this way? Like and they struggled with it. They were like, oh, something's up with dad. Whereas they were used to it from me.
I was like, there's nothing up with dad at all. I said, dad is actually defining himself, and he's actually trying to understand our traumas, right, and our triggers and what we have all been through. So there there's always hiccups in there, but I think we just have a better way of communicating with each other. And now when we come home, like, after work, we can have the same conversations.
Like, oh, “I worked with this family,” and then he could be like, yeah, “I worked with this family” or “Tarsh, I'm working with this Aboriginal family. You know, I'm struggling with this. How do you think I can support them?” We're having the same conversation.
Patty
That is really extraordinary. Wow. That could have ended a whole other way, and it really didn't.
Tarsha
No. And it didn't. And don't get me wrong. I got judged for I don't wanna say taking him back, but for him coming back into our lives.
Patty
We do get judged by well-intentioned people that don't realize that, actually, I've gotta do what's right for me. I can't do what you think is right for me. You can't want something different for me than what I want for myself. So, I'm really glad that you brought this up.
Tarsha
Yeah. Because I did. You know? People couldn't understand like, oh, you've done so well. We can go on. Why would you bring that back into your life? And I'm like, he's the father of my children. And like I said, I thought we would grow old together. I don't hate him. I actually love him.
And, you know, and I'm a fixer. I like to fix things. I remember talking to a good friend of mine that was actually my maid of honour in our wedding. And I remember telling her in tears that he'd got a girlfriend, and she said, “oh, I'm busy, I've gotta go.” She didn't even wanna hear. And I was like, you know, it makes you really see who the true people in your life are..
You know, we still talk and everything like that. Don't get me wrong. But she couldn't deal with the chaos or the not perfect marriage or the not you know? So, everybody has different thoughts and feelings, but to me, I needed to have people around me that were like minded, and that's what I've done. And they're some of the struggles my husband has had since he's come back. I actually have friends. I have a social life. And at the start, he struggled with that because before, I didn't go anywhere and do anything apart from horses.
Patty
He had to fit into your new life.
Tarsha
Yeah. And that's what I said. I said that to him. I said, you need to now fit into my world because I'm not changing who I am. I said, I fought too hard to get to where I am, and it actually gave him the ability to do the same. But it could have gone the other way. Right?
He could have gone, oh, well, “screw you, I'm not sitting around fitting into your world.” But he had to get used to that world because that wasn't his norm. I would be at home caring for the kids, doing the washing, the cleaning, the cooking, the whatever. And when he came back, I actually said, because he's an amazing cook. And I actually said to him, “I've cooked for these kids every night for the last 2 years, mate, it's now on you. You're cooking dinner for the next couple of years.”
Because that was my one hard thing. I remember, I'd be at work all day. I would be dealing with some really complex families and situations, and then I'd have to come home and cook dinner. I'm like, I don't wanna cook dinner. Last thing I wanna do is cook dinner. Yeah. So, he did that. He did that for I reckon 3 years. He cooks dinner every night.
Patty
If this is not a redemption story, I just don't know what is Tarsh.
Tarsha
I know. And he's amazing. He's been the strongest male role model for Darcy.
Darcy's been through a lot. He's got a disability. He couldn't go to school. Darcy was really heading down a wrong path if we allowed him to stay in the environment he was in, and Nigel has just shown him how to be a strong male. And, he would never have been able to do that prior.
Darcy and he have a very close connection. Darcy will get out of bed and go, where's dad? I'll be he's at work, mate. ‘What time is he coming home?’ You know, like Darcy seeks his father's, I don't wanna say it's not attention, but it's like the comfort of his father being around him. Yeah. And being so good for him.
Patty
It's it sounds like it's real soul medicine.
Tarsha
It is. And I couldn't have done these things with Darcy as mum. I mean, but it is a different dynamic, and they didn't have that strong male role model, because of the situation we were in. But Darcy got to experience that. You know, like my girls always say to me, ‘I'm so proud of you, mum. I'm so proud of where you've you know, who you've become, where you were at, what you're you know’, and now Darcy can say that about his own dad, which is pretty special.
Patty
Oh, if that's not the best place to end this podcast, I don't know what is. I do have one final question for you today, my friend. Are you a solo walker or do you like to walk with company?
Tarsha
I would say both.
I definitely love to have allies, and I definitely love to have people beside me and around me and helping me walk on those journeys. But then I guess there's also time where now in my older life, because I'm now 50, I like that serenity of having my thoughts to myself and being alone.
Like, I paint. I'm an Aboriginal artist, and I find art is healing for me. And I love to do that alone. Like, I've said to my kids, ‘don't come near my stuff, don't touch anything.’ But my kids and Nigel sit there and watch me, but he won't talk. He'll just sit there and watch me paint.
Patty
If that's not a healed relationship, I don't know what is. Tarsha Jones, you are my superstar. Thank you for coming today.
Tarsha
Thanks, Patty. I always love yarning with you.
And that is it for today, folks. I'm now gonna pass the baton to our fabulous cofounder, Kirrily Dear, who will share some amazing information about what RAV are up to behind the scenes. And, of course, if you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone you think could love it. Liking, subscribing, and especially leaving us a 5 star review ensures that we give the algorithm a helping hand to get to the listeners that need to hear from us the most. Bye from us now.
Kirrily
Thanks, Tarsha and Patty, for such a powerful and insightful interview. Tarsha, your openness, your honesty, it has enabled all of us to see, in very practical terms, the journey of turning an unhealthy relationship into a healthy one. A lot of us struggle to understand what is it going to take for everyone to have healthy relationships? But you have shown us what that journey might just look like. I'm Kirrily Dear, I'm one of the founders of Run Against Violence.
Run Against Violence is a not for profit, volunteer led organisation dedicated to the prevention of family violence. Our mission is to build communities where family violence can no longer live. We have a 4 point strategy in play to make that happen. Those 4 points are caring communities, respectful relationship normalisation, healthy self-esteem and reliable services. In the relationship between Tarsha and Nigel, we've particularly seen the importance of respectful relationship normalisation and healthy self-esteem and how those 2 can be highly dependent on each other.
For instance, with Nigel, we saw how his behaviour transitioned as his purpose in life increased. Once he chose to seek education and was able to establish a routine with the family, such as cooking dinner every night for 3 years, (good man, 5 stars to you), and having that clear role within the family that fed his self-esteem and enabled him to start building healthier relationships.
But that education piece also gave him another vital piece of information and that was, what does a respectful relationship actually look like? And those two factors combined enabled the family, and in particular, Tarsha and Nigel, to build new habits around their relationship. That's the transition that we need to see happening across our communities.
To have communities that are free of family violence, we don't need people to be perfect. What we do need is for our relationships to be healthy. So, thank you, Tarsha. Thank you. Thank you for being so willing to openly share in ways that we can all understand what the journey ahead of us is going to be like, as we all take steps together to prevent family violence.
Outro
RAV. Run Against Violence.