Empathy in Action: Tools for Transformation
Patty Kikos interviews Brenton Pobjie, whose life has been shaped by service and resilience. His grandmother found refuge with the Salvation Army when fleeing domestic violence with her 6 children, and his father became a minister, instilling in Brenton the importance of helping others. After his mother tragically passed in a car accident, Brenton dedicated himself to youth work, including time spent in rehabilitation schools. As a Child Protection case worker, Brenton emphasises the power of deep listening and the need to show respect when in someone's home. He shares practical tools to help children express when they feel unsafe, offering valuable insights for anyone caring for vulnerable young people.
After listening to this episode, Kirrily had this to say.
“We established that as this year's topic for the RAV Podcast because our community asked for it. Many of us know we need to be having those uncomfortable conversations, but we feel completely out of our depth to do so. And many of us fear that if we have that conversation and do it badly, we're going to cause more trauma. We're going to cause more damage than good.
Thanks to Brenton, we have a fantastic framework for thinking about those conversations. And also, the other people who have contributed to the RAV podcast this year. We have ended up with an incredibly rich list of techniques and tools and ideas that we can all be using to have those conversations.
I strongly recommend that you go back and listen to each episode again and again. I know I have already, and I will be listening to them many more times and I will be sharing them with my community, with my friends, my work colleagues, anyone who I think can benefit from that information.
Brenton, I particularly loved your statement that ‘Caring Conversations’ begin with curiosity. And we saw that as a theme throughout these interviews. We need to just slow down and ask questions with an open mind, rather than coming at it with a conversation already happening in our heads, or assumptions, or stereotypes, to be truly present.
And we also know from the interviews in this series is that we need to slow down and take time and take tiny little steps. ‘Caring Conversations’ is a vital tool that we need to embed throughout all of our communities.”
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Transcript
Brenton
I think, it's really important when we're listening to people is to dig deep and be present and not let things slide. And so, you know, I remember, doing an exercise with a with a girl one day, and we're using a tool. And, it's a thing called ‘The 3 Houses’, and one of them is ‘House of Dreams’. So, you know, what would you like to do or have when you grow up? And sometimes they're quite fanciful answers, and it would be easy to go, “aww that's a cute answer”.
But this particular girl said, “I would like to be able to fly”. And I said, “oh, so tell me about why you would like to fly”. And she said, “so I could get to school on time”. And so that then provided the platform to go, that's a real value of hers.
She's hating not getting to school on time. She obviously loves school. But that then became an opportunity, because sometimes I would well, I would always ask children if what we've done with them, they would be happy for me to show their parents. And so, it's an opportunity to say to the parent, “oh, when we did this, she said this”. And we and initially, the mom had a laugh and went, “oh, yeah”.
And then I asked her why. And she said that she wanted to get to school on time, and then that became an opportunity to talk about how do we make that happen because, clearly, this is upsetting her. Clearly, this is impacting her with her peers, with her education. How can we partner together around, you know, and you can see the shift in the parent as they move from this place of, oh, what a cute answer to what's actually, being said by my child.
Patty
Hello. I'm Patty Kikos and welcome to the latest interview with Brenton Pobjie. There's so much I can tell you about him that we didn't get a chance to cover during our chat, such as his passion for travel, the fact that he's a wedding celebrant, and how he loves dogs but doesn't actually have one.
His stories of why he has the extraordinary desire to really hear his clients are breathtaking. In fact, he received an award from the DCJ Aboriginal Working Group for his work with Aboriginal families and his capacity for deep listening. Brenton once spent a year participating in 12 different events for 12 different charities and raised over $9 000, He loves to exercise, but he's also a gaming nerd who enjoys watching movies.
He tells me that he has the unusual combination of being incredibly clumsy, but also has good reflexes, so I guess he's constantly ‘nearly’ breaking things. But as the final episode for this season, Brenton takes us on a journey that traverses a deep tragedy that affected his family, the special connection they had with the Salvation Army, the youth work that led to his role in a rehabilitation school, that ultimately segued into his career defining moments within Child Protection.
This is an episode where you might want to take some notes or refer to our script because Brenton will share some really helpful resources such as the ‘3 House Tool’ and ‘The Safe House’, tool that anyone can use to empower children and give them a voice. It gives them the choice to determine what their priority is and also gives you an opportunity to seek their permission as to whether it's okay for us to share this information with anyone else. I learned so much, and I have a feeling you'll feel the same after listening.
Brenton
I feel like it's, a privilege And, yeah, it's humbling that I would have a story that's worth listening to or being told. So, I think that's a part of what I find fascinating about being invited to do this. Yeah. That's great. It's a real privilege.
Patty
You don't just have one story. You have many stories. You've got cautionary tales, and you've also got some tips for so many people that don't have your qualifications or wealth of experience. So, I think the privilege is very much ours.
Brenton
Aww that’s nice.
Patty
So, Brenton, do you have a favorite memory of your childhood that you might sometimes still feel a little bit nostalgic about?
Brenton
That's an easy thing to identify. It revolves around wherever my grandma my, mother's mother, my grandma Gilbert, was. So, whether that was up in Coffs Harbour or in Grafton, being around her was a place of grounding, of calm. She modelled for me, a fun, loving relationship with my grandfather.
She was warmth. There was love wherever she was. And whilst I didn't recognise it at the time, she was definitely my place that I could sense and experience the memories of my mother. And, yeah, she was what still represented the memories of my mother who died when I was 9. But, yeah, she was my favorite.
Patty
I didn't realise that your mom had passed away when you were little.
Brenton
So, we were in a car accident as a family as a family of 4, and my father was driving. My mother died instantly. My sister was 3 and had significant head sort of injuries. So and I had some significant injuries as well, but not as much.
It was significant, and a part of the story that that is my story, I guess, is that I, for most of my life until the last 5, 6 years, didn't have the opportunity to integrate her story into my life. And so, she was absent, and she wasn't spoken about. And so, it's been the last 5 or 6 years I've been integrating her back into my life. So, remembering her birthday, remembering the day that she died, remembering her on Mother's Day, and have become more integrated as a person as a result of it.
Patty
Has that been significant for your journey of grief and bereavement?
Brenton
Yeah. Definitely. I don't think we do grief and loss well in Australia, and as a part of our culture. And so, definitely, it was a time when I don't think my dad had the resources or capacity to deal with his trauma and loss, around that. We were talking about a time where there's a major car accident, and there's no mobile phones, you know, you're waiting for ambulances.
It would have been I can't imagine how dark, and I cannot remember. I have I have no memory of the incident itself. But, yeah, definitely, it was also a time where other adults, uncles, aunties would you know, didn't interfere in other family's business. And so, I've had to go seeking those stories. I've had to ask my uncles questions.
I've had to go back to my father. I've had to find friends. So, for example, my aunty Helen is, someone who used I found out used to have coffee with my mother every week. And so, she has become a part of my life, and, she's been a source of stories and, recollection. So, I've had to go hunting, but it's been restorative, and, I've become more whole.
Patty
It's interesting that you say you didn't do this until the previous 5 or 6 years. Would a part of that be because you almost weren't able to process such a big thing?
Brenton
I think I lacked the knowledge or understanding of why or how to. So, it was having the right people come into or come back into my life. My current partner is someone that has recognised that there were, I was spending a lot of time with either my foot on the accelerator or my foot on the brake.
And so has encouraged that journey of exploration, and, you know, I've had some good counselling and seen a psychologist and, have taken the steps necessary to... I don't think I understood where I fit in the world. I didn't understand where I fit in my family, and it was only when I started to understand who my mother was, and a part of what we might tap into later is what I understood as to who I was and why I was. I thought it had to do with my faith worldview. What I've come to understand is that those 9 years were instrumental in shaping who I am, and I now understand who I am most like and, a part of the DNA literally that makes up, you know, that that who I am.
Patty
And are you more like your mom than your dad, do you think?
Brenton
From everything I understand, I'm very much like my mother, yes.
Patty
How extraordinary. Well, I know you grew up in a family that was part of the Salvation Army. And before we get to that, what was the segue that connected your dad initially to that organisation?
Brenton
Sure. So, my grandfather was someone who, struggled with alcohol and as a result was, a man who chose to use violence. And he would beat my grandmother. That's my grandmother on my dad's side, grandma Barlow.
And my dad would retell stories of having to sleep with a knife under his pillow. So, sleeping with this this, you know, his own trauma, I guess, this fear. And so, he tells the story of how there was a woman from The Salvation Army who built a relationship with my grandma, and then there was an opportunity one night for them to escape in the middle of the night and leave Queensland.
Patty
So, it was your grandma, your dad, and did he have other siblings as well?
Brenton
Five siblings? Yep.
Patty
5 in total or 5 with your dad?
Brenton
6 all up. Yep. And so, they were able to escape that experience of violence. And so, my dad would talk about how, he owes, well, his life in a lot of ways and, you know, to the Salvation Army. And so, he became a Salvation Army, what they call officer or minister. And so, he has committed his life, to that movement or that, organisation.
Patty
It sounds like you grew up in a family where you were given strong foundations of, I don't know, I'd probably say social justice and standing up for the poor, the underprivileged, the oppressed even. Did it then become a natural extension of the work that you then sought to do?
Brenton
Yeah. I think even in a voluntary capacity, even when I first finished school, I looked, to be honest, I was quite lost. There were hints along the way that something was inside me that I needed to help others or had a desire to help others. When others were talking to me about what I wanted to do when I left school, I said I wanted to be a taxi driver. Now on the surface, no insults to taxi drivers, but, you know, the feedback I would receive from family was, well, “no, that's not what you wanna do, why would you wanna be a taxi driver?”
But if there are opportunities to be curious, if someone had taken the opportunity to explore what that was about, it was about being with people, It was about going on a journey with people. It was about, taking people places and serving. And so, that was evident through some of the volunteer work that I was doing.
I ran a basketball program for kids in the street, around where the church was at the time, and I was involved in leadership in the youth group that was there. But I ended up working for an insurance company. I finished the HSC, had no idea what I wanted to do. Someone from my family encouraged me that I wanted to go to Uni and do a Bachelor of Economics. So, I went back and did HSC a second time. Halfway through, I went, that's not me. That's not what I wanna do. But went and worked for an insurance company for a while.
Patty
So, did you not finish your HSC? Did you leave school?
Brenton
Oh, no. I did the HSC once, but I was incredibly social at school. And so, I didn't study and just, you know, passed everything, but just scraped through.
Patty
Oh, so you passed but didn't get into uni. Is that what you're saying?
Brenton
Well, I didn't even apply to uni.
Patty
I love it.
Brenton
Yeah. Yeah. And so it was, yeah. So, they thought, oh, you should do the HSC again, try and get into uni.
But again, just completely lost. But definitely, there was that, you know, undercurrent of, you know I think a part of the trauma, I guess, that I was talking about earlier with the loss of my mother. I was I was lost for, you know, a lot of my life. There was evidences throughout when I was working for the insurance company. I started off in customer service, but then finished up in a role of conservation officer.
Patty
What does that mean?
Brenton
Well, it's funny because, basically, I was in a role where people would call up, and they would talk about wanting to cancel their insurance policy. And my job, was to talk them through that and to hopefully lead them to a place where they decided to keep it. And I and I was one of the most successful conservation officers there because I had a 98% success rate. But what I was doing is I was sitting and listening to people, understanding, you know, what their concerns were and sitting with them and finding solutions.
And, so even then, there was something, you know, that was ticking away. And so, the opportunity came along to be a full time youth worker, based in a church. And so that gave me the beginning avenue to start working in the area of, the social field and supporting and working with other people. When I listened to the original podcast, around these ‘Caring Conversations’, I couldn't help but think that caring conversations happen through curiosity, that I think a lot of the meaningful conversations that I have always start with curiosity.
Patty
Tell me about your time as a youth worker. I know that you've said you worked in New South Wales, you worked in Canberra, even in Queensland. And it was mostly in a coaching, mentoring, and maybe even practitioner role with the Salvation Army. I'd love to know about the things that you learned because are calculations correct? Would you have been in your twenties when you embarked on that youth worker role?
Brenton
Yeah. I was around the age of 23, and in that role till I was about 33. So yeah. I think while I was operating in all those 3 states at the one time, so at the time, it was known as the Eastern Territory, the work of The Salvation Army. And I think whilst a lot of, like, obviously, the goals of my work was to help youth workers set goals to be strategic. Sometimes I'd always try and dedicate, you know, maybe half an hour to listening to where they're at and, sitting with them and understanding how checking in with how they're going. But sometimes those 2 hours would end up being just sitting and listening.
Patty
So, are you referring to you training other youth workers or working as a youth worker with the youth?
Brenton
Oh, no. Training other youth workers. So, whether they were in a voluntary capacity or, a paid capacity, I would enter into this coaching arrangement where we would meet monthly. And so that would be the goal of that was to help them set goals and be strategic in what they're doing and, but it was definitely a pastoral role as well in the context of trying to, help them last and thrive. It’s not about surviving. It's about thriving. And so, the things that I learned in that role was that, you know, people ultimately just wanna be cared for.
They wanna be heard. They wanna be nurtured. They wanna be encouraged. Things that, you know, I want for myself. And I think the best training environments, because, you know, you would run weekend training events or weeklong training events, I think the best training environments are the ones where you recognise and honour. You know, people talk about respect, but for me, it's about honour, where you recognize and honour the expertise in the room, not the expert at the front of the room.
Patty
Tell me more about that because that seems very interactive, engaging, and it seems like it's got a lot of collaboration in there.
Brenton
You know, one of the very first things that I would do at the beginning of any training event was I would get the small tables to calculate, you know, how many years people have been working with youth and, get those tables to tally and feedback to me. And so, for example, I would after getting that, I would go, I wanna recognise that there's over 250 years, experience of youth work in this room.
And that whilst, you know, I may be conducting a training, that this is an opportunity to hear from each other and, so really come at training from a place of humility, where whilst you might have a theory and a skeleton of how youth work can be undertaken, these people have different lived experience, things to listen to, things to share.
And so, it's always really important to it's the same as when you go into a family's home. You know, if you're working with DCJ that you recognize that there's been a journey that's that that has been existing before you get there, culture that's been existing before you get there, and that it's a privilege to be let into someone's home, whether you're there under government legislation or not. You know, I would always leave at the end of being with a family and say thanks for letting me in your home.
Patty
I just wanna unpack that for a little bit because you had to be there because it was your legal obligation, but you really honour the fact that they did open their homes to you and welcomed you. And you're right. It is an honour. It's an honour to be in someone's home and it's an honour to listen to somebody's story.
So, it sounds like the concept of listening is vital and you've already talked about that, but it sounds like networking is also important because isolation would be really unhealthy and potentially dangerous if you're navigating a situation that's unsafe or precarious.
Brenton
I think when I think about, isolation and networking, I think about in the context of what I've learned in the youth work training space is that that's what would cause people to, burn out, to struggle to make poor decisions. That was why sometimes those coaching appointments would be just sitting and listening for 2 hours, as to what people are going through.
Because being heard means that they, can continue on in that journey, because they might be out in rural New South Wales somewhere, and you've turned up, you know, once a month for 2 hours. But it's having someone that they can journey with on that.
Patty
Especially if they didn't have anybody else to speak to. I mean, I can't help but notice something. I wanna make note of the fact that you had some very good active listening skills during a time in your life when you were 23 to 33 when most of us are usually more concerned about what our response is going to be.
And we tend to interrupt, and we tend to like to retort or retaliate and sometimes even share our own stories. What's your best tip about how to listen in a way that's very, not just mindful, I would say soulful.
Brenton
I guess, for me, I would have to say it there's 2 things. 1 is it probably I need to recognise and be transparent, and so probably one of the big life struggles that I've had is the use of my own voice, giving space for, what I want, what I need, how I feel. I have definitely been someone that has cruised along in life, making sure everyone else is happy.
So, I have had to learn the importance of using my own voice, especially in the context of relationships with other people at various levels because I was someone that was that was always just trying to make sure everyone else is okay. But when you do that, you negate the opportunity for other people to love you because they don't know how. You aren't really a useful participant in a relationship if you're not sharing what your needs are and what you want. So, in some ways, that foundation of listening, was what I was doing all the time. So, I haven't ever reflected on that until this moment, but that's definitely there.
But I think I'm gonna I'm gonna acknowledge my mother because I know that she was someone that other people, like, my uncle described her as, someone that when she walked in the room, she would light up the room, and when she left it, you would feel less for her leaving. But one of the things I know about her in the stories I've heard is that she would listen. And I imagine that that was modelled for me. But, also, I think there are skills that I picked up along the way around the importance of listening, because, I mean, the reality is if you wanna especially in the in the context of coaching, for example, if you want to understand context, you can only do that through listening. You have to remove assumptions.
You have to, pause, reflect. And I think, also, some of the counselling courses I've done through the years have also set the foundation for the importance of listening well, and being comfortable with that, the awkward silence. That silence is okay. It's not the enemy.
Patty
True that. I mean, this might have partly been a trauma response. It might be part of your personality. It might be that you were a parentified child. It could be a number of things, but some behind the scenes that many of our RAV’ers listening today won't necessarily know is that in our previous conversations, you've often said, “hey, and if I'm not the right person, it's okay.”
And I've said, “oh, you're the right person alright, you were not getting out of this interview.” So, I feel like it's important to mention this. Now you participate in many events, Brent, and including the yearly RAV challenge. Tell us about your dedication to the polished man that you have each year.
Brenton
Yeah. I guess I discovered the polished man program or, like, fundraising, event, annual event, at the same time that I was involved in, the behaviour school that I was working in in the Hunter. And so, it married really well, in the context of a visible way to, speak out or raise conversations around violence against, children and women. And so, for those who don't know, the Polish Man Campaign sees you polish a nail, in any particular colour.
Blue tends to be the standard one, but, but it's specifically encouraging men, who would not normally paint their nails to do so. And so, the idea being that yeah, someone would notice that you have a nail polish. You don't normally have that done. Why are you doing that? And the opportunity to speak out against, violence against women and children. And, yeah, I guess to speak out again against maybe some of the more of the even the more extreme examples of violence against women and children, like slavery and abuse.
Patty
It sounds like it provided an opportunity to plant a seed where they could participate. And I'm gonna ask you about that behaviour school in a moment because I know that you've also said they wanted you to paint their nails and that challenged masculinity. And initially they'd make fun of you, but then you respond with why you were doing it and things changed.
Tell us about the school. Was it a school opportunity before a juvenile setting? So, for example, a chance to reset challenging behaviours because I know when we've chatted offline, you've mentioned that the ratio was 3 students to 4 staff. So, I'm intrigued to hear more about how we can transform the educational landscape.
Brenton
Yeah. As to how we transform the educational landscape, that's another podcast for another time, with extensive experts in the area other than me. But certainly, the context for the school was boys and girls who weren't able to continue to, exist in the mainstream school setting for whatever reasons, behaviours, or inability to support. And, you know, a lot of these children had experienced trauma. They were potentially children in care, living in not even with carers, but in, you know, what we call TCA. So, you know, where there are workers that they have workers during the day, workers at night.
Patty
So out of home care?
Brenton
Yeah. Yeah. So, lots of different context, but, essentially, you know, trauma, and quite difficult. All the foundations that would make standard learning impossible and difficult. And so, they would come into the school setting rather than, you know, this would be the next step before juvenile detention, ideally, never making it there. Some students would go into, you know, juvenile detention, but then come back into our setting and continue to be cared for, in that context. So, yeah. So, there was in a classroom as, you know, for example, if you had 3 students, there would often be 4 staff in that room.
And so, it allowed for 1 on 1, you know, support and engagement, in that in that setting. And trying to work through creatively how you support them, to learn. So, if one of them is into motorbikes, well, then you do your maths, you do your English around, you know, what they're into. Creating that, unique learning space, having a therapy dog, having, you know, a yarning circle beginning of the day, you know, having a reward system where if, you know, behaviour was sufficient during the week that they would get to go and do laser zone with staff or, you know, things like that. So, finding ways to really engage them in a different way.
Patty
Tell me about the work of Nathan Wallace because I know it really influenced you. It was all about didactic relationships, and you took an idea where you could spend 20 minutes a day with them doing whatever they wanted.
Brenton
Nathan Wallace is an incredible educator around neuroscience, and he talks about the 1st 1000 days of a child and, and how if there isn't that didactic relationship. So, essentially, where if we have a healthy growing context when we're developing in that first 1000 days, then we will have a healthy attachment to at least 1 adult, and that that forms the foundation for new neural pathways, and healthy engagement and establishment. So, he can say it much better than I can, but that's essentially it.
So, we initiated an experiment, like, where we would, you know, reflect on how the children would leave the classroom to come and spend time with me and how they would return so that there was a period of assessment, as to whether we would continue to work in this way. So, the idea being, come and spend 20 minutes with me.
We can do whatever you want. And the only 3 rules are it can't hurt you, it can't hurt me, and it can't hurt anyone else. And ideally, it doesn't break anything. But that was that was it. Would you like me to give you some examples?
Patty
I would love to because I think it fits in really beautifully with our ‘Caring Conversations theme because I know that there are many people listening who are thinking, ‘I could do this’.
Brenton
So, this boy was, 14. And, when offered the opportunity, he said he just wanted to play basketball. So, when we first did this for 20 minutes, it was quite fascinating to see him almost, fervently chase the ball down. Like he didn't want me to touch the ball.
So, I couldn't even return it to him. He would take a shot and then chase after the ball. So, for 20 minutes, I just stood there. If it happened to come near me, I could sort of get it back to him, but he there was almost this possessiveness and hunger that he sort of, like, a survival instinct where this is my time, and I'm gonna do everything I can. The next time we went, he was happy for me to return the ball to him.
The 3rd time we did it, every now and again, he would say, “oh, you can have a shot if you want”. I'd have a shot, and then he'd continue. Then the next time, he was willing to play ‘around the world’, but I sort of was happy to sort of let him win. And then the last time that I got to do that with him, you know, it was over a number of sessions in a row. He was quite happy to lose.
Like, it wasn't a problem for him, and he was really comfortable turn taking. The transformation in just, you know, those 4 or 5 sessions of 20 minutes. One of the biggest things that happened was the last time I did that with him, he walked off, and he walked past another teacher. And the teacher came straight up to me and said, “oh, did you hear what he said?” And I went, “I didn't hear him say anything.”
But apparently, as he walked off, he said, “thanks”. And so, yeah, it was incredible to see such a simple concept have a massive impact in the context of our relationship and, the way that he went from, like, this almost this craving lost child that needed to hold on to this, to just being willing to turn take and be appreciative. It was incredible.
You know, one of the things that I would do when working with children and with parents in the context of my work with DCJ is I would often ask them, what's called the Magic Question. And I would say to them, if you could wake up tomorrow and one thing about your world has changed, what would that be?
And, that answer would often provide an indicator as to where we can hopefully go next, what change they actually wanna see in their life, and, you know, some of the pain and hurt that they might be feeling around their own context, and maybe their own, hopelessness, to instigate that change. So, can we partner around that?
Patty
That's a beautiful segue, isn't it? Because anyone can initiate that response, that caring question. If there was a magical way to end something or you wake up and you have something tomorrow, what would it be?
Brenton
Yeah. So, you know, sometimes that answer might be, more money, and then that, you know, provides an opportunity to say, well, what would that solve? I think, it's really important to when we're listening to people is to dig deep and be present and not let things slide. And so, I remember, doing an exercise with a with a girl one day, and, we're using a tool. I think it was 3 houses, and one of them is House of Dreams.
So, you know, what would you like to, you know, do or have when you grow up? And sometimes they're quite fanciful answers, and it would be easy to go, “aww that's a cute answer.” But this particular girl said, “oh, I would like to be able to fly.” And I said, “oh, so tell me about why you would like to fly.” And she said, oh, “so I could get to school on time.”
And so that then provided the platform to go, that's a real value of hers. She's hating not getting to school on time. She loves school. But that then became an opportunity to go, , because I would always ask children if what we've done with them.
They would be happy for me to show their parents. And so, it's an opportunity to say to the parent, oh, when we did this, she said this. And we and initially, the mom had a laugh and went, oh, yeah. And I said and we then I asked her why. And she said that she wanted to get to school on time, and then that became an opportunity to talk about how do we make that happen because, clearly, this is upsetting her.
Clearly, this is impacting her with her peers, with her education. How can we partner together, and you can see the shift in the parent as they move from this place of, oh, what a cute answer to what's actually, you know, being said by my child. So yeah.
Patty
What's the name of this tool again?
Brenton
This one is the ‘3 Houses’ where you have literally out frames of 3 different houses.
And, again, there are ways that you could use this where you could dictate and go, we're gonna use this tool, and we're gonna do House of Good Things first. And, there's 3 houses. One is, House of Good Things, House of Worries, and House of Dreams or maybe a Future House. And so, when using this tool, first of all, I would ask the child if it's okay if we did it, and I'll explain it to them. So, again, giving them back power, because children are often powerless and don't have a voice.
And so, it's important that we give them that. And then I would say to them, having explained the 3 houses, which one do you wanna talk about first? And then they would choose. And so, again, giving them back that power, it's really important.
Patty
And empowerment. Yeah. And then?
Brenton
And you would then sort of, find out about the things that are good in their life. Because, again, we can go in assuming that their world is terrible. But through listening, we can find out what are good things that are going on in their life.
And then in listening to them, that they can start to share maybe some of the things that they are worried about, some of the things that aren't going so well. And, again, the house of, Future Dreams or Hopes, gives us those other insights like I wanna fly or, you know. And so yeah. And look, you know, I it's a small thing, but even being creative and a child is saying to me, “I don't like the House of Worries”. And I said, well, :why don't you like the House of Worries”?
And they said, “it's red.” I said, well, “what colour would you like the House of Worries to be?” And they said, “oh, I'd like it to be the House of Good Things.” I went, “okay, well, let's just rename them.” So, yeah, just listening and, being adaptive when you work with, with children. But that was a great tool amongst, some of the others that I used to use.
Patty
I'm gonna ask you about some more of your tools when I ask you about your role in DCJ. But before I do that, I feel like I wanna ask you, how do you keep yourself from being triggered and even reactive when someone might potentially be verbally abusing you?
Because I know you've worked in schools that were located in predominantly lower socioeconomic areas. And you've said to me once, you said, your benchmark was, did I make a difference to 1 person today? But at the behaviour school, I imagine that this wouldn't have worked so well for you. So, was it important for you to ensure that you also had regular formal supervision, possibly like what you facilitated for the youth workers that you trained previously?
Brenton
Yeah.100%. And it's actually out of that that I shifted my goalpost. So, yeah, at the public school, you know, at the end of every day, did I make a difference to one person today? And the answer was always yes. It was fantastic. You know, couldn't be living a better life.
It was after my first day at the behaviour school. I just went, oh my goodness. This is such a tough context. We're walking around in walkie talkies. I'm being called everything under the sun. And so, in supervision, I just was sharing that, and they said, “oh, no, the the benchmark needs to be completely different, in this context.” And the benchmark became for success. ‘Did I turn up? Did I get out of the car, and did I go inside?’
Patty
Woah.
Brenton
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
And so that's not about, what that is actually about is about consistency. Am I being someone who is consistent in these children's lives? Am I there no matter what they throw at you, no matter what they say? Am I resilient, patient, calm?
Because chances are, they're trying to prove that I'm another adult that is there to harm them or give up on them. And so, I'm not going to be that person. The way I'm making a difference that day is, it may not be visible, or spoken about, but I know I was successful because I was consistent.
Patty
And in less formal situations where we are reaching out to someone maybe in our church group, maybe because we teach dance or run soccer clubs or football clubs, and maybe we're having difficult conversations where we don't have that formal supervision that's awarded to workers like us.
I think this emphasizes the importance of being able to debrief with someone that you trust, but I can't help, but also mention knowing who your community and family are, but also our own self-care. And for many people that will look like very different things. For some, it'll be journaling, exercising for some it'll be reflection. It'll be prayer. It would be counselling or psychology sessions.
And I think that it's important to know what's going to fuel your cup. So, I had someone back in the day when I was teaching yoga say, “oh, I'm just not spiritual, and I don't know that I could ever connect to those things that you Yogi's do.”
And I said, “I don't know about that because we live in a beach community, and you go surfing every day. So, what you do on that board in that water is more spiritual than I ever do in a class.” So, I think it's important to really recognize that there are different things that will fuel your cup at different junctions and times in your life.
Do you reckon we can head to you moving into your role with the artist formerly known as DOCS and is now known as the Department of Communities and Justice, DCJ. You worked as a caseworker for 5 years in both the Preservation department and in the Assessment space.
So, first responder after the helpline, and you said that you enjoyed that more than the preservation space. Can you tell us a little bit about those roles? Because I know that you'll also be able to share some really helpful tips that all of us listening today will be able to implement quite easily into our everyday interactions with those that we love.
Brenton
Probably one of the things I was passionate about was making sure that dad's voices were heard, as well as children's voices were heard, but also passionate about challenging men's behaviour, so men who were choosing to be violent. And so yeah, that was a byproduct is that, you know, I remember a dad saying to me when initially for, you know, weeks, he would not let me in his home.
And through being creative and patient and even pushing the envelope that we were, you know, we at one point, he just, invited me into his home. And caseworkers, hadn't had a chance to get in there. And then standing in his home and him being emotional and actually crying, and after all that of, you know, if I wasn't patient, if I didn't listen, if I didn't seek to understand, that I would have perhaps on the surface gone, “I've got a parent here who's resisting, who is, refusing to engage.”
And so even that language, you know, that that we were encouraged to use the language of, we're having we're facing challenges engaging, recognising that often we're the block. And so once in the home, and to have this dad crying and then telling the story that this is the home in which he spent hours trying to resuscitate his father. And I go, I haven't just been led into a home. I've been led into his life and a traumatic event, and what a privilege that was.
Patty
I imagine many of your predecessors would have said that they would have said, look, he's been nonresponsive, non-compliant even would have been a word that would have been used. So, it took patience and persistence. And you saying, I'm not going anywhere, but every time I do show up, it's gonna be in the very same respectful, and I dare say even reverent space that I'm gonna project.
Brenton
Yeah. That that word honouring, I think is the one that I tap into, that I really wanted to honour him, his story and his life. And, that I refuse to go anywhere, but I refuse to not be creative and chose to really sort of work through how we could, get there, because we wanted the experience to be different. So, yeah, so those things are really a massive privilege when you are allowed into someone's life and, yeah, working through that. So, I think, yeah, listening is really key, as a foundation for the work I used to do with DCJ.
Patty
Brenton, tell me how you'd put safety plans together with parents and children.
Brenton
It would be really important in the context of before going out to see a family, of trying to talk to as many family members as we could before going out. And a part of that was also not just rocking up, but actually calling the parents and saying, we need to come out. You know, we need to have a chat.
We wanna understand how things are going for you and asking permission to speak to the children at school and, why, and working with them, you know, around the time that works best for them. Because the reality is, there would probably be days that you might rock up to my place, and it's not my best day. You know? And so that even gave opportunity for families like I don't know. Let's say that a report is that the house is really unkept or untidy.
But if you rock up and maybe it has been. But you give people the opportunity to go, well, yeah, it's been untidy, but that's not how we wanna live. And so, it's giving dignity back and going, this is how we actually wanna live here. So, it's another evidence of their commitment to change. But, in relation to safety planning, one of the things I was passionate about all the time is I would recognise verbally, if not just personally, that as a DCJ worker, you come in with lots of power and talking openly with families about that.
And so, there's, (I think it's changing), but there is, a safety manual that we would use to assess whether we're meeting a danger. And I would always take 2 with me. And what I would do is if I felt like we were meeting a danger, I would pull out 2 manuals, give one to the parent, talk to them about what it is and how it helps, why we have it so that we don't just remove children because I'm having a bad day.
And I would say, “look, you know, if you turn to page 17 and look at danger 5, let's read through that together.” And I would ask you, “do you have any challenges around, you know, reading or anything that might be an obstacle?”
Let's read through it, and I would read through that danger. And I would say, “I feel like we're meeting that danger today.” But because you've taken the time to give power back to them, give them the information, they have the assessment process in their hands. I would always find that parents would go, “I agree. We are meeting that danger. And then It was incredible.
And it's it takes time. It's a long assessment, listening and then doing that job well. But it also then meant that you could go, well, since we're meeting that danger, we need to put a plan in place that reduces our worry and negates our worry around that. How do we do that? Who do we bring in? And what's your plan?
You know, I wanna give you some time to think, speak to people that, are in your family or your network. I wanna give you the chance to come up with a plan that would mean that we don't worry about that for the next 3 days, and that we can then talk about how it becomes a more permanent plan. And so, you know, I would go back to them and hear what their plan is and write that out and, you know, work on that together and check-in on them and check-in on the network.
But I've also had situations where, we've met a danger, and they've said, “oh, I can't think of anyone that we can bring in, I can't think of a plan.” And then I would also be transparent and say, “well, I need you to know that if we're meeting a danger and we can't come up with a plan, then this is what it looks like. We do look at children coming into care, and I need you to know what that's gonna be like. It's gonna mean seeing your child once or twice a week for an hour, them being with someone else and not living with you.”
And even being transparent and honest about that dire consequence, if it needed to happen, would be enough for them to go, “alright, we need to make this happen.” So it was an incredible privilege to be honest and transparent with families and give them all the power and opportunity to start the process of change, in that early stage of assessment.
Patty
2 things that I hear is your desire to empower someone. Like, this is your copy, and I wanna know your thoughts. And something you didn't say outright, and maybe I've misinterpreted it, but I can't help but notice that there's no rush.
We're gonna take the time it needs for you, and it might be different for each family, but your timing is your timing. I wonder if you can give me some other examples of some tools that you found really helpful and stories to illustrate them.
Brenton
Yeah. Sure. There would be nothing heart more heartbreaking for me than preparing, to go see a family. And as an example, I would read through previous Safety Assessments or Risk Assessments, and this is an example because I owe it to the family to know what they've already shared and to not go out and ask them a question they've already been asked. And it actually gave me opportunity to go out and say, oh, “you've shared in the past that you, haven't had postnatal depression, you've recently had a baby, how are you going this time?”
It means I've shown them enough honour and respect to actually understand their story before I go out. However, this situation we had been involved in their life 2 or 3 times before, and there were 6 children in the family. And we'd never spoken to the children.
Patty
And so, you mean your predecessors had never spoken to the children?
Brenton
The time I had there was not there was no evidence in, the assessments written that the children's voices were present.
Patty
Well, didn't you miss your calling to be a diplomat? That was very diplomatic.
Brenton
I'm not throwing anyone under the bus, because the reality is I don't know the context of what may have been happening or anything else.
So, all I know is what is my job, on my watch. My watch is to make sure I speak to the children. And so yeah. Look, people would know that when they came out with me that it could be a whole day, affair because you take time.
And you ask lots of questions, and you're curious, and you take time to listen. So, yeah. Some of the we call them secondaries who came out with me knew that they would, have to warm up their wrists and fingers to take lots and lots of notes. But one of the tools that I use in listening to the voice of children, is, along with the 3 Houses, is the Safety House, and I would often start with that.
And, basically, it's a skeleton of the house. You've got a roof. You've got your you block your 4 walls, a garden path, and a fence. And you would talk through, the house. And so, you would first of all talk about, the roof, and that represents what rules. You know, you would ask the child, this is your house. What rules would you wanna have in your house for you to feel safe?
And often through that, you know, they would say, oh, no fighting, no yelling, no hitting. And, again, you could just go with that and go, oh, that's what's happening to them or that's what's going on in the home. Sometimes it was, but sometimes you'd say, “so tell me about who hits in your house”. They go, “oh, my brother hits me”. The danger is if you’re assuming, making judgment and go, “oh, a parent's hitting you.” Well, no. You're curious about what happens.
But it gives you a platform to understand context and what are the values of that child and what's happening for that child. You would then talk about, who would you wanna have live with you and then go inside the block of the house. So, you start to understand who are the safe people that this person has in their family, in their network. Maybe who have they left out. And then you would do on the path, you would talk to them about who are the people that you feel safe with that you would wanna come and visit you, but not live with you, but they go back to their own home.
And, again, you're starting to understand, who's in their network, because they're all people that if you're meeting a danger, you can start to call on, to help keep the children safe. And then the last part of the fence, and that is, ‘who do you not feel safe with that you don't want in your home and that you don't feel like they can even come and visit you?’ Sometimes it would be, like, random things like burglars, but sometimes a specific person would be named.
Patty
Like who?
Brenton
So, on this occasion, one example is the dad, or the stepdad. And so, it was made really clear by this 12 year old that the person that they didn't feel safe with was, their stepdad. In the conversations with mum, we were sharing our worries around, the violence that's going on in the home and the impact on the children. And the mum said to me, if Peter, not the real name, “if Peter, wasn't feeling safe, he would tell me, and I would leave.”
And it became an opportunity for me because Peter had given me, permission to show both the stepdad and the mum, the Safety House. It gave me an opportunity to be really honest with the mum and say, “he is telling you; he's told you, that he does not feel safe with this person.” And that became a catalyst for mum to start the process. You know, we were able to speak to maternal grandma and show her the Safety House.
And she was able to just suddenly come out with all these, “I have worried for years, and they can come and stay with me, you know.” And so that tool became not only my tool for understanding the context of the child, but it became the voice for that child. And that then projected onto that created change because this 12 year old was also brave enough to say, “yeah, you can show my stepdad.” And so, it became something that I could sit down and go, “how do you feel?”
Because, you know, we do wanna challenge men who choose to use violence. ‘How does it make you feel when you talk about how much you love this person that they don't see you as a safe person and they put you here, and they haven't put you in the house.’ So that's just one tool that I could use and one example of how I could use it.
Patty
That is extraordinary. Well, that kind of rapport doesn't get built in an hour. No wonder you spent all day with some families.
Brenton
It's about really understanding context. And so, yeah, that's really important. We had a situation.
We were worried about children's experience of violence in the home, went out to do the Safety Assessment, and the dad had left to go overseas for a period of 3 weeks. It would have been easy to assess the situation and go, things are safe. Dad’s not at home, we can come back later. Instead, what we chose to do was go, well, it happened yesterday. We're meeting a danger.
And so, we brought in that, you know, a Safety Plan using the family network, with both sides of the family. And it was even incredible to be contacting the other side of the family and having, uncles and aunty’s who are on the father's side saying, “we share worries.” And so even though the children were safe that weekend, we still put a Safety Plan in place, as a practice run almost. And then we’re going, “okay. It's currently safe, let's assess it when dad comes back.”
When dad came back, I had people from that network calling me, saying, we know you're going out to assess today. If you need us, we are here, ready to go. We have already made plans, if things go south. And so, I loved the fact that we gave dignity to those children by going, “things may be okay right now, but they may not be one day, let's put this in place.”
And to see the network do that themselves, without our involvement was one of the days I was just really proud about what we do.
Patty
This is so incredibly important because we can't have ‘Caring Conversations’ on our own. We need to be collaborative as a community and in a formal work situation, you were able to do that, and you were authorised to contact relatives and external family members. But as a community, it really highlights how important it is to rally and have people come on board and share their time, their resources.
Brenton, you are fantastic. And I have a final question for you today and it is, are you a solo walker or do you like walking with company?
Brenton
I'm gonna be annoying. And I'm gonna say both, and I know that I shouldn't.
Patty
You can say whatever you want. It's your interview.
Brenton
Look, I am definitely socially driven, and so I love I love cycling, walking, running with other people because I know the benefits of exercise by itself, but also the benefits of being with other people. So, I'm definitely someone who loves walking with other people.
However, I also appreciate the discipline of doing it by yourself and that space and time to process and reflect and maybe do some of the work, that you need to do internally. So yeah. I'm both.
Patty
I like it so much. Guess what? I am as well. Depends on the time of day. Brenton, thank you so much. You've been amazing. And that is it for today, folks.
I'm now gonna pass the baton to our fabulous cofounder, Kirrily Dear, and she's gonna share some amazing information about what RAV are up to behind the scenes. And if you found these episodes to be helpful, please do share it with someone that you can think would benefit from hearing it. Liking, subscribing, but especially leaving us a 5 star review ensures that we give that algorithm a helping hand to get to the listeners that need to hear from us the most. Bye from us today.
Kirrily
Thank you, Brenton and Patty, for an insightful and empowering interview.
It has been wonderful to listen to your depth of experience on how to hold ‘Caring Conversations’. We established that as this year's topic for the RAV Podcast because our community asked for it. Many of us know we need to be having those uncomfortable conversations, but we feel completely out of our depth to do so. And many of us fear that if we have that conversation and do it badly, we're going to cause more trauma.
We're going to cause more damage than good.
Thanks to Brenton, we have a fantastic framework for thinking about those conversations. And also, the other people who have contributed to the RAV podcast this year. We have ended up with an incredibly rich list of techniques and tools and ideas that we can all be using to have those conversations.
I strongly recommend that you go back and listen to each episode again and again. I know I have already, and I will be listening to them many more times and I will be sharing them with my community, with my friends, my work colleagues, anyone who I think can benefit from that information.
Brenton, I particularly loved your statement that ‘Caring Conversations’ begin with curiosity. And we saw that as a theme throughout these interviews. We need to just slow down and ask questions with an open mind, rather than coming at it with a conversation already happening in our heads, or assumptions, or stereotypes, to be truly present.
And we also know from the interviews in this series is that we need to slow down and take time and take tiny little steps. ‘Caring Conversations’ is a vital tool that we need to embed throughout all of our communities.
When we learn to break that silence and do it well, we are going to be taking some massive steps forward, making solid progress toward that day when we can all live in communities that are free of family violence.
Outro
RAV. Run Against Violence.